dynamic BCLD top

[Terror Only]

you could notice that a lot of retired map developers are stuck in the BCLD list. they don't make maps but they visit pb2 at least one time every 60 days. they can't be dropped from the list and that's not fair to new and very active map makers(not talking about myself). pb2.5 should remove inactive map makers from the top no matter how often they visit the website.

for exaple if you don't make at least 1 map per month you're getting removed

[monkeyman2535]

I'm sure the content-obsessed masses of this game, all of whom are completely unwilling to pull their own weight, would love to see those who have actually put time and effort into this husk of a community stripped of what little recompense they have received for their work.
Unfortunately for you, I will continue to never make maps and I will continue to keep my spot. Cheerio!

[Terror Only]

you overestimate your and other ancient map makers merits. all your "effort and time" looks like shit compared to modern maps.

an exception can be made for a few people who had actually invented something besides few shitty walls and background combos. like cahir (or drobek98)who has a lot of stuff that can be considered unique even today.

Unfortunately for you, I will continue to never make maps and I will continue to keep my spot. Cheerio!

that's the problem. i hope eric will consider removing people like you from pb2.5 tops.

if you can give me an example of what SO GREAT you have done, go ahead. (because salvation was a way too spammy)

[monkeyman2535]

you overestimate your and other ancient map makers merits. all your "effort and time" looks like shit compared to modern maps.

Show me a single "modern map" which actually exists in the creative wasteland that is this game, and is actually good, and I will be instantly convinced of this. Until then, I will continue to uphold that you are simply ungrateful and that you are deluding yourself with fantasies like the one you've expressed in this topic.
And yeesh, why do people like you keep fetishizing Salvation of all things? How about you actually take a look at what I and the other "ancient" (I find your idea of "ancient" pretty amusing) mapmakers have made, and then compare those maps to the dross that this hollow community produces now?
If you seriously believe there's something worthwhile and new in this community that's being shamefully held down by a bunch of dusty old mapmakers, I would seriously suggest you be checked for blindness.

[Terror Only]

i will show you a modern map when i finish it. you will realize that "great effort of ancient map makers" has nothing to do with the quality of the map i'm making right now. just don't leave pb2 until i finish it, ok babe?

How about you actually take a look at what I and the other "ancient" (I find your idea of "ancient" pretty amusing) mapmakers have made

what is it by the way?

[49er]

Unfortunately the formula for best LDR factors in overall ratings, giving older accounts a leg up. The formula is exacerbated by the depopulating trend that this game has experienced since ~2013. This is a valid concern. The system should value quality of rates over quantity of rates (with some respect to quantity obviously). Quality over quantity wouldn't indirectly help the non-existent older=better paradox, and wouldn't require forcing level developers to constantly churn out low-time-effort maps (in fact it would penalize it.)

I'm sure the content-obsessed masses of this game, all of whom are completely unwilling to pull their own weight, would love to see those who have actually put time and effort into this husk of a community stripped of what little recompense they have received for their work.
Unfortunately for you, I will continue to never make maps and I will continue to keep my spot. Cheerio!

At no point did OP slander old mapmakers in the original post; his reactionary idea seems to come from the unfairness of the system not the inherent inferiority of map makers. And it's true that over time users have 'figured out' how to make new, better things that players prefer.

Since the whole point of the list is to display excellence, it doesn't make sense to reward clearly inferior maps that time-circumstantially collect more votes. Ideally maps of different ages should compete fairly. Do your maps hold up overtime? Only in a quality over quantity system would you even be able to find out.

I would like to see something like weighted voting for community-identified map experts.

[monkeyman2535]

i will show you a modern map when i finish it. you will realize that "great effort of ancient map makers" has nothing to do with the quality of the map i'm making right now. just don't leave pb2 until i finish it, ok babe?

How about you actually take a look at what I and the other "ancient" (I find your idea of "ancient" pretty amusing) mapmakers have made

what is it by the way?

Still amused by your use of "ancient", considering we are talking about a flash game which has existed for about five years.

I have seen your maps and I am not impressed: your "Overkill" is done in the same trite style as many other post-Stryde-sniper maps, with an antiseptic, boring atmosphere, and a funny, twisted sort of shape which is a sure sign that the mapmaker is making a futile effort to be clever. Your other map, "Combat", is both conceptually and artistically derivative. What you have made so far does not in any way convince me that you are capable of impressing me.

I would also suggest that if you're so clueless about my accomplishments as a mapmaker, that you actually, you know, look at the maps. I have never innovated fancy new things to do with triggers and timers, but my "shitty wall and background combos" all have distinctive styles and ideas behind them, which is why they were popular in the first place. Take a look at your maps, and then take a look at Salvation, since you seem so keen on being a brat about it. What you will find in Salvation that is absent in your maps is a desire to create something interesting, to tell a story, and to not be held down by a boring, derivative style.

I've also made some of the most well-liked singleplayer maps in the history of this game, but it would not surprise me if you're the type that doesn't see any value in SP, even though it takes far more effort and skill to do well.

Once again, look at the maps yourself.

At no point did OP slander old mapmakers in the original post; his reactionary idea seems to come from the unfairness of the system not the inherent inferiority of map makers. And it's true that over time users have 'figured out' how to make new, better things that players prefer.

Since the whole point of the list is to display excellence, it doesn't make sense to reward clearly inferior maps that time-circumstantially collect more votes. Ideally maps of different ages should compete fairly. Do your maps hold up overtime? Only in a quality over quantity system would you even be able to find out.

I would like to see something like weighted voting for community-identified map experts.

First, I'd like to point out that the fact that his immediate reaction to my reply was "all those maps are shit" should tell you something about his actual motives in making this post.

Second, I'd like to point out that your entire defense of this idea, which is here presented in the context of a profound disrespect and ingratitude to the mapmakers who made this game what it was, rests on the faulty assumption that mapmakers in this game have been consistently innovating over time, and that there are great new mapmakers whose work could quite easily surpass many of the old greats, were they not being buried by an unfair system. In the state of this game right now, I think it's pretty clear that this is totally untrue.

I have seen no evidence of innovation or great new mapmakers; in fact, the maps you'll see today are almost uniformly inferior to the ones that preceded them. In MP today, you'll see various poor copies of XnX-school, Stryde-sniper, and Cahir's saws, and almost nothing else. When maps are newly approved (which is increasingly rare), they are either similarly poor copies of older approved maps, or they are old maps that Eric has decided to approve on a whim. If you look at the "New Custom Level Developers" page, which should ostensibly be the first place you could find great new innovation, you will find more of the same. Nobody who has the remotest chance of being a top level developer is being held down by the BCLD system, and rewiring the architecture of the system in the hopes of squeezing some novelty out of a decayed community would be pointless; and, I reiterate, disrespectful to the people who held the community up in the first place.

As for your idea about "map experts": I think this is a terrible idea. Giving the power to influence rankings to an elite few would almost certainly result in biases for and against the most and least favored people, and the success of a map would be even more determined by a mapmaker's ability to "game the system". The only way for a mapmaker ranking system to have any hope of fairness and impartiality is for it to be a democratic system, and, like it or not, that's what we've got. If the people of the democracy no longer want to participate, or if they no longer wish to participate in the way that you would like them to, that's their prerogative.

[Terror Only]

i did not make overkill and combat maps to show how "cool and original i am". they are made for entertainment purposes. i did not want overkill to look like a modern map. plus i'm pretty sure stryde wasn't the very first person in the world to use concrate and basic bg combo.

as i said i will finish one map to demonstrate you that old map makers are not always the best map makers (like u think).

you may have made a few well rated singleplayer and multiplayer maps. but that doesn't mean that you should be at the very top of BLCD for making them and tell everyone that "i will keep to never make maps because i'm already the best". dustin45-swords has over 700 rates but does it mean it's a good map? i don't think so

slowly going back on topic: retired map makers should be put into legends list and be removed from BCLD list. we have the same system implemented for top best players so why shouldn't eric use it on you too?

[KARL SERG]

I'm sure the content-obsessed masses of this game, all of whom are completely unwilling to pull their own weight, would love to see those who have actually put time and effort into this husk of a community stripped of what little recompense they have received for their work.
Unfortunately for you, I will continue to never make maps and I will continue to keep my spot. Cheerio!

Woah, nice attitude. I can't wait to hear what you are doing to separate yourself from the toxic part of the community of this Game while emptily insulting any Idea given here, having lost all of your hope and now trying to convert us to do the same.

How do you expect anything to be good in this world if you have this stupid, teenage-ish, nihilistic attitude? I doubt you'll change, but you will hit the Wall if you don't. If you are some kind of excuse for an anarchist (because you aren't even an anarchist), you should know that something requires a certain type of investment to work.

The only way for a mapmaker ranking system to have any hope of fairness and impartiality is for it to be a democratic system, and, like it or not, that's what we've got. If the people of the democracy no longer want to participate, or if they no longer wish to participate in the way that you would like them to, that's their prerogative.

This is false. Democracy only makes sense if the People who vote know what they are doing and are driven by good values, otherwise it is just as impartial and fair as choosing a ticket out of a hat. According to you, the community is too decayed for that to work and they will simply follow a trend; I think it is much better to have Staff approve most of the Maps and let the Community vote on the Maps made by Staff.

As for the idea, it is mostly good. It should definitely be implemented in PB2,5 if there will be People willing to make Maps.

[49er]

I would like to acknowledge that the rating system or anything on this website will never be modified again. There is no application for this discussion but I will proceed out of intellectual curiosity.

It is inevitable that the new generation of maps' highlights will be better constructed than their predecessors, simply because the new level editor allows more precision, and new mapmakers have the collective knowledge of older maps to build upon. Obviously no one is suggesting that old maps must be inferior, or even that new maps are superior on the whole. There is simply a potential for better maps moving forward, and this reality must be reflected in LDR. In a system in which quality of votes was weighted heavier than quantity of votes, all maps would compete fairly. If newer maps are inferior on the whole (considering most of our lights are now inactive, I wouldn't be surprised) then old maps would indeed attain higher ratings, but on their own merit. This would actually be the more democratic course of action.

That being said, am not a personal fan of democracy and I tend to combat it wherever I see it even on "dingy little flash games." Considering the demographic model of PB2, democracy is especially terrible. You have an abundance of young, naive users who only play for a few weeks then quit the game or only play shitty role play maps, and a select few users who actively participate in constructive feedback. This is the nature of any game; most people get bored and leave in short time, while the remaining few contribute over the course of months or years. It is important that the fleeting members of the community hold little representation because their criticism is undoubtedly less valid.

I would also like to point out how easy it would be to come up with a list of "approved map raters" or something like that. Anyone who uses the chat or the forums is already in good standing for that label. Even a mildly dystopian scenario in which some worthy users were excluded as part of a slippery slope, would still see fairer and more abundant ratings, at the possible expense of hurt feelings. Personal politics is less relevant than our overarching goal, to promote map-making greatness.