There should be approved maps for one mode only!

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There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby lrv » 10 August 2020, 17:14

I do not see any reason for this. There are systems that are perfectly fine disabling certain modes and this was even endorsed for a certain time by official requirements. It's also way easier to make maps specificly for a certain mode, while still maintaining a certain level of quality and competitive gameplay.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Stryde » 10 August 2020, 17:40

The reason for this is because there is no way to physically force a map to be hosted for a specific gamemode. When you host a map, you have DM, TDM or COOP as options for the gamemode. This goes for any map that is hosted as a PB2 lobby, even a map that is meant to be played DM only and has trigger mechanisms to kick players out of the map if it is in TDM or COOP.

Take EGRW: Eric Gurt-railwars1 is best suited for COOP (as many players agree with) although you can host it in all three gamemodes (DM/TDM/COOP). Since mapmakers are not given the option to restrict maps to a specific gamemode, this creates an issue where players can unintentionally host a map in a gamemode not meant for the map. The lobby is still made, regardless if trigger mechanisms are used to kick players for invalid gamemode, before players are removed. This is the problem.

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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby lrv » 10 August 2020, 17:58

And if it puts the players in a cut off room without weapons and swords and tells them via a hint this map can only be played in Coop for example?
The only way this might cause deaths is by the players clicking the "Restart" button, but that can basicly happen in any map.

Or are such "bad" lobbies some kind of a major problem?
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Stryde » 10 August 2020, 18:18

lrv wrote:And if it puts the players in a cut off room without weapons and swords and tells them via a hint this map can only be played in Coop for example?

The issue is that the lobby is still being made. Follow this path of logic:

Player connects to MP -> Player hosts Stryde-rm in COOP mode (note this map is restricted to be played in COOP mode only) -> lobby made -> gameplay trigger validation runs -> match proceeds
Player connects to MP -> Player hosts Stryde-rm in TDM or DM mode (triggers prevent map from being played past 4 seconds with a hint message telling them to rehost the map in COOP mode) -> lobby made -> gameplay trigger validation runs -> match proceeds until triggers remove them after 4 seconds.

The issue is the sequence of events between when lobby is made and when gameplay trigger validation runs. Triggers cannot run on a map before map lobby is created.

Your solution, in fact, no trigger-based solution, solves this problem. This is something that must be implemented by Eric in PB2.5/3.

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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby lrv » 10 August 2020, 19:27

And what is exactly the problem with people having to rejoin in a new match and the trigger message only being activated once the game starts?
Also I don't think kicking players by trigger is necessary. A simple hint message and a killproof room would do.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby nightmar » 10 August 2020, 21:15

what if we can make the map force all players to leave if it is in the wrong gamemode? For example the map will notice which gamode it is that it is played at and if it is not the correct it will execute a trigger that will kick out players.
How many bugs does this game have anyway? jeez
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Stryde » 10 August 2020, 21:46

lrv wrote:And what is exactly the problem with people having to rejoin in a new match and the trigger message only being activated once the game starts?
Also I don't think kicking players by trigger is necessary. A simple hint message and a killproof room would do.

Players often use the random approved in rotation tool to host a random approved map. Since you missed the last part of my message, "The issue is the sequence of events between when lobby is made and when gameplay trigger validation runs. Triggers cannot run on a map before map lobby is created.". Your solution and response: "don't kick them with triggers, make them stand in a killproof room" -> YOU ARE STILL REQUIRED TO HAVE THE MAP LOAD TO TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE IN AN INVALID GAMEMODE.

Furthermore, killproof rooms are not possible due to the fact that in approved maps, the game is hardwired to respawn certain slot weapons (I know at least slot 2, 4, 6) when players connect. This is also a requirement with all new approved maps and this is done with e-marks, which are not gamemode-specific. Basically, anytime you host an approved map, YOU WILL spawn with a weapon. There is a reason why this is a specific requirement and has been maintained after the approval requirements have been re-written.

nightmar wrote:what if we can make the map force all players to leave if it is in the wrong gamemode? For example the map will notice which gamode it is that it is played at and if it is not the correct it will execute a trigger that will kick out players.

Literally go read my last post talking about how the order of events matters. The map lobby still must be generated before any triggers are used.

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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby nightmar » 11 August 2020, 12:01

Stryde wrote:
nightmar wrote:what if we can make the map force all players to leave if it is in the wrong gamemode? For example the map will notice which gamode it is that it is played at and if it is not the correct it will execute a trigger that will kick out players.

Literally go read my last post talking about how the order of events matters. The map lobby still must be generated before any triggers are used.


Indeed the lobby can still be created, but if players are kicked out by the triggers as soon as they join they won't be able to fight. Therefore, they will be forced to play the map in the right gamemode.
How many bugs does this game have anyway? jeez
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby lrv » 11 August 2020, 13:36

Stryde wrote:Furthermore, killproof rooms are not possible due to the fact that in approved maps, the game is hardwired to respawn certain slot weapons (I know at least slot 2, 4, 6) when players connect. This is also a requirement with all new approved maps and this is done with e-marks, which are not gamemode-specific. Basically, anytime you host an approved map, YOU WILL spawn with a weapon. There is a reason why this is a specific requirement and has been maintained after the approval requirements have been re-written.

Should be possible to get rid of the guns via triggers or teleport player far away from other players. However this requirement was NOT maintained. It was newly added. The outdated requirements in linked in the required reading post still endorse such methods.

But I do see how it can be annoying if many of the randomly created matches have to be redone.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Stryde » 11 August 2020, 14:47

nightmar wrote:
Stryde wrote:
nightmar wrote:what if we can make the map force all players to leave if it is in the wrong gamemode? For example the map will notice which gamode it is that it is played at and if it is not the correct it will execute a trigger that will kick out players.

Literally go read my last post talking about how the order of events matters. The map lobby still must be generated before any triggers are used.


Indeed the lobby can still be created, but if players are kicked out by the triggers as soon as they join they won't be able to fight. Therefore, they will be forced to play the map in the right gamemode.

No, they aren't. I host a ranked EGRW as DM but its restricted to COOP. I get kicked from map, my options range from:

- joining another map
- leaving the server
- leave multiplayer
- switch servers
- play singleplayer
- play custom map
- play unranked
- attempt to host map again in DM
- attempt to host map again in COOP
- hosting another random map


lrv wrote:
Stryde wrote:Furthermore, killproof rooms are not possible due to the fact that in approved maps, the game is hardwired to respawn certain slot weapons (I know at least slot 2, 4, 6) when players connect. This is also a requirement with all new approved maps and this is done with e-marks, which are not gamemode-specific. Basically, anytime you host an approved map, YOU WILL spawn with a weapon. There is a reason why this is a specific requirement and has been maintained after the approval requirements have been re-written.

Should be possible to get rid of the guns via triggers or teleport player far away from other players. However this requirement was NOT maintained. It was newly added. The outdated requirements in linked in the required reading post still endorse such methods.

But I do see how it can be annoying if many of the randomly created matches have to be redone.

It may be possible, but the issue is that the gun teleportation isn't 100% in synchronization. The whole point of this is that if it takes the mapmaker this much effort to make their map gamemode specific AND is still isn't seamless, then it is not conceivable for it to be possible in approved maps.

As for what the approval requirements endorse and do not endorse, I wrote them with modifications from Kiriakos Gr96. Check under "RESTRICTED MODELS AND TRIGGER ACTIONS FOR APPROVED MAPS" and you will see that kicking players with trigger actions is not allowed, and if you check under "GAMEPLAY", the first bullet states that all maps must be possible to be played in all gamemodes. The outdated requirements say on top of page last updated August 28, 2019. The forum post guidelines are the most up to date version.

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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Nyove » 11 August 2020, 15:38

I don't get it.

What's the purpose of having an approved map that allows only one mode? What extra benefit does this provide when you compare to a map catered for all 3 gamemodes?

I am sure you made this topic in regards to your most recent approval request. Please kindly educate us as to what is so special about your map that it has to be different from the other currently approved maps, allowing only for one gamemode.

Let's say your map got approved and got into rotation. A user creates a random map (and by default gamemode is set to YES) and it generates your map. The next thing he knows he receives some hint that this map is playable only in COOP and he gets kicked out from the match.

So hypothetically we implement this system where certain approved maps are restricted to certain modes, are you expecting PB2 players to memorise what gamemode is allowed on all future maps?

Unless you are telling me your map is very unique and really deserves this chance to get exception, I see no reason for implementing this.

I will be honest, not only is your map not unique enough to deserve some special exception to the currently established set of rules of approval, your map does not even pass the criteria for an approved map.

An approved map is meant to be the face of the game, maps played by the general public of PB2, new and old. You cannot expect us to accept an average piece of work for approval, which might be potentially shown to

A map shouldn't just go through a checklist and from there we determine whether it's worth approving. This doesn't make any sense. The map should be unique and good enough that the approval team feel like it deserves approval.

So in case you are wondering, no, your map doesn't give us that impression.

Contrary to popular belief, making an approved map requires a lot of experience and perfection. Most of the newer currently approved maps have been playtested a several times and is ensured to uphold a certain quality as well as uniqueness. Most of the new approved maps are made by very experienced map makers like Stryde, Creeperhunter55, kubakuba, etc.

Sorry if I come out slightly too harsh, I am giving my honest opinion.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby lrv » 11 August 2020, 15:54

It's not relevant whether my map is good at this point. I was below standard due to me accidently taking the wrong link to requirements, which were outdated and demanded less quality then the current ones. My map shouldn't be approved in this state.

I have more of a problem with the rule in general. As you say approved maps should be unique, but this rule is a large hindering factor in that regard. It mostly only allows for a very small selection of health values, due to the fact they are the same for all three modes while these feature partially different physics, different loadout and require very different gameplay stiles. This also sets bigger restrictions for envirement, as it has to be symetrical or otherwise provide equal starting areas for Coop, allow players to move fairly easily anywhere in the map for DM and TDM. Weapon placement is also highly influenced by coop mode while it might not even make sense for DM or TDM in some places.

In General it boils down to three criteria which aren't influenced heavily enough by all modes to share a certain similarity on all maps with the last one having minimal effect on gameplay:
Weapons
Ineractable objects (teleports, gravitators etc.)
Aesthetics

This does not allow for unique gameplay. It's the same tactics for every sniper map, for every shotgun map and basicly for all maps sharing similar weapons. Every map feels the same that way and does not provide any uniqueness gameplay wise whatsoever.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Nyove » 11 August 2020, 16:26

lrv wrote:As you say approved maps should be unique, but this rule is a large hindering factor in that regard. It mostly only allows for a very small selection of health values, due to the fact they are the same for all three modes while these feature partially different physics, different loadout and require very different gameplay stiles.


So you want approved maps with 300HP, 500HP and maybe even add in a 700HP? There's a reason why the health values are selected in a certain range.

Unique is not just about gameplay, it is about the entire overall theme of the map, including design. In a sense the approval rules should be strict and hinder most maps from being approved, because we only want the map with the best quality to made it to approval. You would not want average maps becoming approved right? We do this to provide the best maps to represent Plazma Burst 2.

There used to be a topic which polls about health, but I can't seem to find it.

lrv wrote:This also sets bigger restrictions for envirement, as it has to be symetrical or otherwise provide equal starting areas for Coop, allow players to move fairly easily anywhere in the map for DM and TDM.


There are approved maps that are asymmetrical, just check out kubakuba's maps.
https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?a=&s=7&ac ... id=1459065

lrv wrote:In General it boils down to three criteria which aren't influenced heavily enough by all modes to share a certain similarity on all maps with the last one having minimal effect on gameplay:
Weapons
Ineractable objects (teleports, gravitators etc.)
Aesthetics


I see what you mean, but adding too bizzare gameplay may be confusing to players. You have to try to innovate and think outside of the box to see if you can create something unique while keeping it simple. That's the challenging bit, and is the reason why most of the approved maps are made by map makers with a lot of experience.

lrv wrote:This does not allow for unique gameplay. It's the same tactics for every sniper map, for every shotgun map and basicly for all maps sharing similar weapons. Every map feels the same that way and does not provide any uniqueness gameplay wise whatsoever.


No. 1 - That's the exact reason why I and many map makers agree they will not make a sniper map.
No. 2 - How the map layout will affect the gameplay.
No. 3 - To your last sentence, that's precisely the challenge. I will not make a map that feels similar to another map.

Take a look at this
https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m= ... &id=988445
https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m= ... &id=984481
https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m= ... &id=987984
https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m= ... &id=920621

If you still argue that the above four maps is not unique, then in a sense the game itself is too limiting for you. The argument of modfiying gameplay and using custom guns won't not work, because remember approved maps need to be designed to be competitive too. Introducing these will include too many factors which may be confusing for professional players.

P.S : We kind of strayed off topic, so you might wanna create a new thread if you wish to continue.
Otherwise, if you have no further objection in not having approved maps for one mode only, you may lock the topic.
If you still do have objections, please kindly answer my questions in the previous forum post.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby lrv » 11 August 2020, 17:57

Nyove wrote:So you want approved maps with 300HP, 500HP and maybe even add in a 700HP? There's a reason why the health values are selected in a certain range.

Whether a map is 130 HP or 170 HP sometimes makes a big difference.

Nyove wrote:Unique is not just about gameplay, it is about the entire overall theme of the map, including design. In a sense the approval rules should be strict and hinder most maps from being approved, because we only want the map with the best quality to made it to approval. You would not want average maps becoming approved right? We do this to provide the best maps to represent Plazma Burst 2.

Yes, design does matter. But there are many other things to consider beforehand. Maps should endorse tactical diversity and good layout before design. Approval shouldn't be about representing the game, that's what the map rotation should be for. Approval should be for maps that balance out with the rest while providing fun gameplay.

Nyove wrote:There are approved maps that are asymmetrical, just check out kubakuba's maps.
https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?a=&s=7&ac ... id=1459065

They aren't 1:1 symetrical, but from my quick skim it looks like you would use the same tactics on both sides.

Nyove wrote:I see what you mean, but adding too bizzare gameplay may be confusing to players. You have to try to innovate and think outside of the box to see if you can create something unique while keeping it simple. That's the challenging bit, and is the reason why most of the approved maps are made by map makers with a lot of experience.

Many approved maps just have it to simple. Take the well-known stryde-sniper for example. Except fo occasionly using nades to throw them into a cover zone it's just about keeping moving and shooting as fast as possible in most spots.

Nyove wrote:If you still argue that the above four maps is not unique, then in a sense the game itself is too limiting for you. The argument of modfiying gameplay and using custom guns won't not work, because remember approved maps need to be designed to be competitive too. Introducing these will include too many factors which may be confusing for professional players.

I'm not talking about that. For example if you're making a map designed for coop with an intended fall hazard, and change HP up accordingly or boost a nearby gravitator. You'll notice when testing in DM that that's a problem and make adjustments. You'll do this throughout your playtesting until you're maps eventually become oversimplified. In the long term that will lead to fairly indistinct and boring maps.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Nyove » 11 August 2020, 18:31

lrv wrote:Whether a map is 130 HP or 170 HP sometimes makes a big difference.

There are approved maps with that... these two different amount of HP. In fact, that is an approved map with 250 HP.

lrv wrote:But there are many other things to consider beforehand. Maps should endorse tactical diversity and good layout before design.


I didn't disagree on that, in fact that is part of the design. Design don't just mean aesthetics wise, but the entire design of the map.

lrv wrote:Approval shouldn't be about representing the game

The first thing when you see when you connect to a server is approved maps... And why do you sayit shouldn't be about representing the game, it's kind of the purpose.

lrv wrote:that's what the map rotation should be for.


Map rotation is to showcase and give other approved maps the oppurtunity to be played because we have an issue with having too much approved maps (oversaturated market).

lrv wrote:Approval should be for maps that balance out with the rest while providing fun gameplay

Good point, but I didn't disagree on that. What's the point of mentioning this? In fact, this is part of the map design. Reason why I keep emphasising on design.

lrv wrote:They aren't 1:1 symetrical, but from my quick skim it looks like you would use the same tactics on both sides.

I just proved your point that there are asymmetrical approved maps. I don't get why you suddenly mention 'same tactics on both sides.' and the relevance to this topic.

lrv wrote:Many approved maps just have it to simple. Take the well-known stryde-sniper for example. Except fo occasionly using nades to throw them into a cover zone it's just about keeping moving and shooting as fast as possible in most spots.


Point being?

lrv wrote:I'm not talking about that. For example if you're making a map designed for coop with an intended fall hazard, and change HP up accordingly or boost a nearby gravitator. You'll notice when testing in DM that that's a problem and make adjustments. You'll do this throughout your playtesting until you're maps eventually become oversimplified. In the long term that will lead to fairly indistinct and boring maps.


Again, I already mentioned this is the challenge you have to attempt to overcome if you want to create something unique. You can try to create a unique experience through map layout.

Also, I don't get this - 'You'll notice when testing in DM that that's a problem and make adjustments.'. Does this apply to one of your map specifically?

---

Last but not least, are you still talking about allowing one gamemode for approved maps?
If so, you still have not addressed my main concerns.
If not, create a new topic, this thread is getting off topic.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby lrv » 11 August 2020, 21:47

Ok, I better re-explain:
Making maps for one gamemmode makes them more optimised, yielding simultaniously easier creation as well as better gameplay, as it won't be subject to potentially negative changes to support other gamemodes. Movement hindering areas for example may sometimes work on a Coop map but would brick the map on DM. This also applies to various other parts of the map layout (fall hazards, walls in accountment for rail-bouncing) and interactables such as elevators.
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Re: There should be approved maps for one mode only!

Postby Stryde » 11 August 2020, 22:03

I think it's safe to lock this topic now if you are going to keep trying to engage in circular reasoning to use as evidence to allow for approved maps to be designed for a specific gamemode AFTER multiple answers have been provided as to why this is not allowed. Until there is a way for the mapmaker to specifically designate maps themselves WITHOUT the use of trigger modifications, it is not possible. E-mark parameters are required for guns and grenades to be available upon respawn and this is hardcoded into PB2 approved ranked/unranked matches. This means that players automatically respawn with grenades and weapons in approved maps. Using triggers to move guns are not 100% effective, and using triggers to change player HP or make players unhittable are banned, as well as kicking players from matches.

Thus, approved maps must be available to be played in all three gamemodes, end of story.

I think if you read my posts on this topic, you'll understand why this is a problem and why there is no solution that is going to work unless this is implemented into PB3.

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