[REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

[REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 30 November 2017, 20:34

[A]
- I have read and understand fully the Required Reading for posting a Map Approval Request: Yes
- I have read and understand fully the Map Approval Rules: Yes
- I have confirmed that this map is currently approved: Yes

[B]
- Map Name: Sniperwars
- Map ID: stryde-sniper
- Link to Map Page: http://www.plazmaburst2.com/index.php?s ... yde-sniper
- Link to Map Demo: http://www.plazmaburst2.com/index.php?s ... yde-sniper

[C]
- In a few words, why do you think this map should not be approved?: Unreachable areas, areas where players can shoot across the entire map, spawnkilling
- In detail, why should the map not be approved?:

100% of the top part of the map cannot be reached without a sword jump or a selfboost.

Spoiler: Show More
I'm unable to reach this pillar:



Even after jumping off of my teammate's head, I was still too far from the ledge:



Can't reach the middle:



Are you serious?



That's not even the worst part. As soon as the match starts in COOP mode, you are liable to have your limbs instantly shot off.

Spoiler: Show More


A YouTube video of this occurring:

See Youtube Video 1.


If you don't move for 1 second, all the opposing team's slots 1-3 have to do is crouch and shoot, instantly ravaging your entire team with bullets. Slot 4 doesn't need to do anything but shoot straight forward, which brings me to the last reason why the map should be modified, unapproved, or both.

There are two (even more than that) camping locations that allow players to shoot across the span of the entire map, while giving them some protection from incoming bullets.

Spoiler: Show More
Camping Spot 1:



Camping Spot 2 (it's actually three steps back, see YT video for more information):



Let's be hypothetical and say that entities have super jumps that they can use to propel themselves higher than a normal jump with a gun in hand. If this were possible, then there's a third camping spot, if someone manages to get up there:

- Screenshot removed


I am completely aware that this is a controversial topic, seeing as how old and iconic the map is. That's precisely the problem at hand. Old maps such as this one that don't fit the guidelines should be modified or unapproved. It's as simple as that.
Last edited by Ty Q on 30 November 2017, 20:48, edited 3 times in total.

Ty Q
Cyber Grub [25]
 
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 March 2017, 07:13

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Slashdown » 30 November 2017, 20:38

This has the exact same amount of validity to it as the ERGW1 request. That amount is up to you, however.

EDIT: After further consideration, and reading the other mass of map removals from the approved list, this is just as strong as any case to remove. I tested the instant kill at the begging of the round, and it does seem to work with relative frequency.
Last edited by Slashdown on 30 November 2017, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

Slashdown
Recruit
 
Posts: 23
Joined: 19 July 2013, 22:18

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 30 November 2017, 20:45

These are the YouTube links:

YouTube Video 1



YouTube Video 2


Ty Q
Cyber Grub [25]
 
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 March 2017, 07:13

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Silent Aurora » 1 December 2017, 00:49

Regarding the spawn-kil issue,

I conducted a few tests, here are my findings; (click spoiler for video and manual script of the shots)

Spoiler: Show More


Spoiler: Show More
Shot 1: 58 hp was lost, 38.6% of overall health.
Shot 2: 106 hp was lost, 70.6% of overall health.
Shot 3: Missed.
Shot 4: Missed.
Shot 5: 36 hp was lost, 24% of overall health.
Shot 6: Missed.
Shot 7: Missed.
Shot 8: 106 hp was lost, 70.6% of overall health.
shot 9: Missed.
Shot 10: Missed.
Shot 11: Missed.
Shot 12: 73 hp was lost, 48% of overall health.
Shot 13: Missed.
Shot 14: Missed.
Shot 15: Missed.
Shot 16: 106 hp was lost, 70.6% of overall health.
Shot 17: 58 hp was lost, 38.8%


The average HP lost is 78 (rounded to 1dp), which is 52% damage the sniper did when shooting from spawn. That's not an insta-spawn kill and barely does half damage when round starts.

In this model, only 41% (rounded to 1dp) of the shots actually hit the person so there's a 59% chance the shot is missed. This clearly shows there's less than half the chance the shot makes it, even when it does, in average around only 52% of the HP is lost. Which is still pretty durable imo.

Now to put this data into real situation during MP, I honestly think this isn't a huge issue when put into a practical situation plus it doesn't violate the spawnkill rule on the guide.

Speaking of practical situation, I run PL which hosts stryde-sniper in COOP for team matches. Not one person has complained regarding this "spawnkill" issue nor has anyone died from it. I think this alone shows why using the spawn-kill argument isn't valid.
Silent Aurora
User avatar
Silent Aurora
Heavy Marine [900]
 
Posts: 937
Joined: 11 December 2013, 18:09
Location: Hika and sks <3

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Krutz » 1 December 2017, 02:33

your buddy there was 1. incapacitated 2. suffered (and survived xxddd) two instances of damage because of a nearby gun on the floor 3. had his swords out

also dont bother uploading a video if its in 144p quality especially if it records you taking 86 shots just to incapacitate him because the bullets are dealing 40 damage

the line of fire in the bottom of the map is reasonable as it offers cover, same reason why the bottom of eric gurt-railwars1 isnt that much of a problem because there is actual cover that is available

your argument is only valid if its applied to a map with a line of fire that is unobstructed by any options for cover

those "camping locations" arent necessarily "camping locations" in the sense of a flaw in the map because they have clear disadvantages and can easily be challenged by another player

and the part about the inferior jumping—shit i guess i was right that eric gurt-railwars1 and 183 other maps should be unapproved

Krutz
Advanced Usurpation Soldier [150]
 
Posts: 166
Joined: 20 October 2013, 16:52

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 1 December 2017, 13:44

- Silent Aurora

If you're going to conduct a realistic test, then opening two tabs and attempting to farm yourself isn't going to cut it. The frame drop that comes from running two instances of PB2 as well as running recording software doesn't emulate what would happen in a real game.

It's also not accurate because of where your cursor is in the video. If you actually knew that moving your cursor further away from your player increases the accuracy of the shots fired, then you wouldn't have missed so many shots. Your cursor is barely 50% across your screen, while during the recording with Guide, my cursor was on the edge of my screen (my failing to take a screenshot is my fault). That's probably why the shot took 96% of his health on the first hit, ripping off one of his limbs, as well as why every subsequent shot hit the same spot.

You say it doesn't violate the rule on the guide? If you bothered checking the guide before making your post, then you would have seen that this is what the rule says:

(image width is over 1200px, click here for a link to the image)

All a player has to do is crouch, aim and shoot to potentially permanently injure someone on the other side. If I was a players on the other team, and at the start of the round a shot comes through and I take damage, there's no way in hell that that could make me feel safe.

And in PCL, being a competitive event, no one sits at the spawn in stryde-sniper. They all move within 1 second of the round starting. I used to attempt this move when I was on Legacy and it rarely worked for that very reason.

And just because it hasn't been complained about before means it's not an apparent issue? I think the fact here is that no one even experimented with this problem. I've known about it for over half a year now after a training session in PCL. And now that I've brought this to light, people will start to use it more. Trust me.


- Krutz

If you were incapacitated at the start of the round, you would not feel safe at the start of the round anymore.
If you suffered at the start of the round, you would not feel safe at the start of the round anymore.
You can take damage from guns on the floor? Damn, I had no idea PB2 had PB2.5 properties already in it...

;)

If you bothered reading the original post,

Ty Q wrote:A YouTube video of [spawkilling] occurring:

See Youtube Video 1.


Ty Q wrote:Camping Spot 2 (it's actually three steps back, see YT video for more information):


you would know that the first video was emulating the spawnkill. That bullet took 145 hp, only leaving him with his upper body to fend for himself. I still fail to see how a player getting shot within the first two seconds of the round starting could possibly allow them to feel safe.

I referenced the camping location at the bottom because it allows players to fire all the way across the map damaging players on the other side. Those players have to navigate to the middle of the map for them to be "offered [any forms of] cover".

Krutz wrote:those "camping locations" [...] have clear disadvantages and can easily be challenged by another player


The camping location at the top can only be challenged if a player comes around from behind them (which can easily be seen), or if a player tries to confront them from the opposite side of the wall. I don't see any clear disadvantages with this unless two other players cooperate to kill him.

Ty Q
Cyber Grub [25]
 
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 March 2017, 07:13

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby ZapruderFilm » 1 December 2017, 15:20

Try getting some actual gameplay footage of people being spawnkilled in coop.
ZapruderFilm
  
Left PB2 Staff to join Dark Clan.

ZapruderFilm
Android T-01187 [200]
 
Posts: 238
Joined: 26 August 2016, 21:00
Location: USA

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Stryde » 1 December 2017, 15:37

ZapruderFilm wrote:Try getting some actual gameplay footage of people being spawnkilled in coop.

Here's your problem:
matches of stryde-sniper in servers are typically in DM, not like egrw or x death-realwar, which are held in COOP


and if someone argues spawnkilling in DM is a thing, lets unapprove all PB2 maps

Not to mention in COOP, most people will go over top of the map, and aren't sitting in their spawns for 30 seconds, like in tburn's video attempts.

Tburn proves this point nicely,
Ty Q wrote:And in PCL, being a competitive event, no one sits at the spawn in stryde-sniper. They all move within 1 second of the round starting. I used to attempt this move when I was on Legacy and it rarely worked for that very reason.

Stryde
Moderator
 
Posts: 361
Joined: 9 November 2015, 02:17

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 1 December 2017, 17:30

Stryde wrote:matches of stryde-sniper in servers are typically in DM, not like egrw or x death-realwar, which are held in COOP




Stryde wrote:Not to mention in COOP, most people will go over top of the map, and aren't sitting in their spawns for 30 seconds, like in tburn's video attempts.




> Round starts at 0:15
> Shot connects at 0:17

And in tburn-sniperwars, if someone is dumb enough to jump up after they hear a gun being fired or dumb enough to sit in one spot that allows them to be shot at from another point in the map, then they're dumb enough to sit at the spawn in stryde-sniper for 2 seconds.

Ty Q
Cyber Grub [25]
 
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 March 2017, 07:13

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Stryde » 1 December 2017, 18:06

Slow the video down, your times are all off

In video 1, the round starts at 13 seconds
User got shot at 17 seconds
Died at 20 seconds

7 seconds is greater than 2 seconds, your claim is negated by math. Also to add, instead of typing "wow" he could have healed himself, as a LEMARian.

In video 2, the round starts at 13 seconds
"Kill bullet" occurred at 43 seconds
User finally died at 51 seconds,
That is 30 seconds later than the round started. 30 seconds is greater than 2 seconds, your claim is negated by math. Also to add, instead of typing he could have healed himself, he had 8 seconds to do so.
Also to add, here is a timetable of the bullets
Bullet 1: tagged
Bullet 2: missed
Bullet 3: missed
Bullet 4: missed
Bullet 5: tagged
Bullet 6: tagged
Bullet 7: tagged
Bullet 8: missed
Bullet 9: tagged
Bullet 10: tagged
Bullet 11: tagged

In video 2, at 1:11 seconds your friend assumes the back spawn position, spawn 7 and spawn 8, respectively on the map
1:15 seconds is when the first shot is fired, and tags the opponent
You have to shoot through the guns before any actual damage is done
1:23 seconds is when the opponent dies

That is 8 seconds later than the round started. 8 seconds is greater than 2 seconds, your claim is negated by math.

Stryde
Moderator
 
Posts: 361
Joined: 9 November 2015, 02:17

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 2 December 2017, 02:09

If you read the original post then you would know that the first video is the only one that shows spawnkilling flaw. Yes, the round started at 0:13, but anyone with common sense knows that it takes time for someone to type "I wont either". I pressed enter and it was sent at 0:15, the time I stated. Two seconds later, he was shot and incapacitated.

Let me get this straight. You're telling someone to heal themselves and completely ignoring the fact that they are in danger of losing over half of their hp at the start of the round. That gives me the impression that you don't care about this flaw and are more concerned about bullet time tables.

But don't worry. If you do some more math, you can still prove that Guide sat at the spawn for 30 seconds before I fired the first shot. Anything is possible if you put forth enough effort, Stryde.

Ty Q
Cyber Grub [25]
 
Posts: 32
Joined: 16 March 2017, 07:13

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Krutz » 2 December 2017, 02:42

Ty Q wrote:If you're going to conduct a realistic test, then opening two tabs and attempting to farm yourself isn't going to cut it. The frame drop that comes from running two instances of PB2 as well as running recording software doesn't emulate what would happen in a real game.

and why would it not?

Ty Q wrote:If you actually knew that moving your cursor further away from your player increases the accuracy of the shots fired,

can you explain what you mean by this

Ty Q wrote:That's probably why the shot took 96% of his health on the first hit,

except it didn't, it dealt 110 damage, which is ~73% of his health

Ty Q wrote:as well as why every subsequent shot hit the same spot.

the reason why it hit the same spot every time is because the sniper rifle has 0° of accuracy

Ty Q wrote:You can take damage from guns on the floor? Damn, I had no idea PB2 had PB2.5 properties already in it...

so, you deny it? then explain why your homie took 110 damage from your rifle's bullet then an additional 33 damage

Ty Q wrote:I referenced the camping location at the bottom because it allows players to fire all the way across the map damaging players on the other side.

yes? and that is to be not impossible? it is completely acceptable to have long lines of fire, especially if the map entirely endorses sniper rifles

and despite you implying otherwise yes i have been bothering to read your posts

Ty Q wrote:And in tburn-sniperwars,

why are you randomly mentioning another map? this is about stryde-sniper; what you said here was completely irrelevant

Ty Q wrote:I don't see any clear disadvantages with this unless two other players cooperate to kill him.


here are the counters to the positions that you suggested:



and i hope i dont have to mention that although those are positions that have advantages over those "camping locations," there are other lines of fire (in other words, those are positions that are "better" than what you suggested, but there are other possible lines of fire that can eliminate someone holding where you suggested, though they may not be "better" [for example])

Krutz
Advanced Usurpation Soldier [150]
 
Posts: 166
Joined: 20 October 2013, 16:52

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby wreak » 2 December 2017, 03:07

Not to be rude or stupid but the simple fact that you can't move to the top part of the map without sword jumping or self boosting should automatically make this map disapproved. It's such an easy fix to put anyways.

Also the top area of the map is pretty much a killing spot. Using your laser and jumping allows you to offscreen kill while opponents down below will miss hitting you or just shoot your legs.
wreak
User avatar
wreak
Civil Security Boss [500]
 
Posts: 577
Joined: 23 January 2015, 02:01

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Stryde » 2 December 2017, 03:35

wreak wrote:Not to be rude or stupid but the simple fact that you can't move to the top part of the map without sword jumping or self boosting should automatically make this map disapproved. It's such an easy fix to put anyways.

Have you played Stryde-sniper?

wreak wrote:Also the top area of the map is pretty much a killing spot. Using your laser and jumping allows you to offscreen kill while opponents down below will miss hitting you or just shoot your legs.

Laser on sniper rifle isn't exclusive to Stryde-sniper

Stryde
Moderator
 
Posts: 361
Joined: 9 November 2015, 02:17

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby bob67909 » 2 December 2017, 10:27

Oh boy, this has been a long time coming.

The defenses immediately given by Stryde and Krutz demonstrate pretty effectively how indefensible the spawnkilling issue is. Seven seconds is more than two seconds; 143 health is less than 150 health (Krutz incorrectly says the shot takes 110 health immediately, which is easily shown false by the actual content of the video); these are pretty obvious facts, but they're also completely irrelevant. The words of the guideline are that players must "feel safe" at the start of a COOP round. If someone can be very nearly killed at the very beginning of a COOP round in any map, that's a sign it has a serious structural flaw in the map, no matter how likely it is for this to happen or how close to death you get. Silent Aurora's post here (1) is based on a tiny data set, (2) uses anecdotal information, and (3) attempts to dismiss the problem as a real structural flaw by referencing this "practical" information as more important than the actual design of the map. If my map included a secret button I could use to set everyone else's HP to 10 for an entire COOP round, but that only had a 5% probability of working, could I reasonably tell you my map should keep its approval because my unfair and un-fun tactics don't work all that often in practice?

Equally telling here is the refusal of all other posters to engage with how central boosting and special jumping techniques are to gameplay on this map. Stryde-sniper changed in a huge way the way people fought and thought about multiplayer games in PB2, and it has done this largely through making self-boosting and all the tricks associated with it utter necessities for competitive gameplay. For the longest time, it's come down just to people's opinions on whether this is a good thing or not--some people love the insanely high skill ceiling--but now we have a manual that tells us that https://image.prntscr.com/image/6pb8k9- ... 8dLCxw.png

In Stryde-sniper, the qualifier on this (that certain things are passable in a map small enough) does not hold, because gameplay moves at such a rapid pace, and there are so many freaks and contingencies built into the gameplay (see the COOP spawnkilling video, for instance, or just go into a DM and watch the mass amounts of ordinary spawnkilling that happen in this map, which I wager are much larger than those of most other maps) that it is pretty much impossible in any real situation for newer players to learn what's going on in a typical game and how to cope with it. I might even go so far as to say that some new players have been driven away from competitive play, or maybe even PB2 in general, because the gameplay of stryde-sniper is so baffling to them. Once you've beaten the campaign, you've got a certain level of skill that comes in handy starting out MP, but nothing there can prepare you for the situations you face in a stryde-sniper game. The map is great for those players who have devoted their time to mastering it, and could stay as a good tournament-competition map for people like that, but the notion that an approved map should have such an environment as Stryde-sniper's has always been ridiculous.

Also, can we discuss Stryde's own positions in this forum section? Look at the topic for tburn's sniper map: viewtopic.php?f=169&t=20428
He says here that https://image.prntscr.com/image/FeO6ScQ ... N2uTOA.png
But in Stryde-sniper, the obvious cross-map firing lane, in addition to players' ability to just jump over the box at the top to make a pot-shot, give his map a nearly equivalent problem.
Not to mention https://image.prntscr.com/image/IzdABQz ... 4Qg_hA.png
But Ty points out that Stryde-sniper, again, has a virtually identical issue: https://image.prntscr.com/image/OsOFR47 ... B7Vlow.png
Krutz says that these don't matter very much for Stryde-sniper because there are counter-positions to these areas, and as such they don't work very well as camping spots. I think in actual matches this is highly debatable, since combat can range across the map and you can sometimes stay holed up in a spot for a pretty decent amount of time. But the real issue is not whether these are long-run defensible positions in the map, but whether it's fair for gameplay when you have so many spots that allow players to take pot-shots and kill people across the entire map. In area maps with wider open spaces and rapid-fire weapons, this is not nearly so much of an issue because you can make out people's positions by where their fire is coming from and a single firing line doesn't dominate the entire map. But in Stryde-sniper, staying in an unfavorable position for more than a second can make you a sitting duck to people you won't ever have seen at all. The reason why the map so often gets off from this charge is because most of the people who play it understand this issue and have learned how to fly around the map with fancy boosting tricks. From the perspective of people who aren't aware that this is a central problem of the map, the use of these areas is basically an exploit for Stryde-sniper devotees. This makes these issues a clear violation of both the words and spirit of the approval manual.

I think, ultimately, this boils down to the last line of the OP:
I am completely aware that this is a controversial topic, seeing as how old and iconic the map is. That's precisely the problem at hand. Old maps such as this one that don't fit the guidelines should be modified or unapproved. It's as simple as that.

Most people are pretty aware that Stryde-sniper has its share of problems, but they're willing to put up with them because they're good at it or they like to play it--the same holds/held true for egrw1. But just because a map is popular and many are skilled at it doesn't mean we should overlook the problems that make it so difficult for outsiders to play it. Stryde-sniper, to be frank, is a mess of a map, made over-hastily after the release of the sniper rifle, and it owes its entire design, most of its gameplay, and also most of its problems, to egrw1--another old map that owes its status overwhelmingly to luck and a devoted subcommunity. If this new manual thing, and this new approval appeals process, are to have any meaning at all, they will allow us to admit to ourselves that this map should not be approved, and really never should have been at all.

bob67909
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Joined: 1 July 2014, 21:06

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby wreak » 2 December 2017, 19:30

Stryde wrote:Have you played Stryde-sniper?

Have you tested Stryde-sniper?

Stryde wrote:Laser on sniper rifle isn't exclusive to Stryde-sniper

True, but you can counteract it with a lot of other maps, it's just that yours isn't one of them.
wreak
User avatar
wreak
Civil Security Boss [500]
 
Posts: 577
Joined: 23 January 2015, 02:01

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Krutz » 2 December 2017, 21:31

bob67909 wrote:(Krutz incorrectly says the shot takes 110 health immediately, which is easily shown false by the actual content of the video)




bob67909 wrote:but they're also completely irrelevant.

except they weren't because tburn claimed that you could fatally be killed from spawn to spawn, and neither 110 damage nor 143 damage (which is an additive damage total) is fatal

bob67909 wrote:or just go into a DM and watch the mass amounts of ordinary spawnkilling that happen in this map

thats not a valid argument to make, as that is a problem with the game and not the map
any map maker can only do so much to prevent "spawn-killing" in their map in deathmatch

bob67909 wrote:I might even go so far as to say that some new players have been driven away from competitive play, or maybe even PB2 in general, because the gameplay of stryde-sniper is so baffling to them.

this is just a little ridiculous, if a single map "drove people" to never play the game again then im not really sure what to tell you

bob67909 wrote:Once you've beaten the campaign, you've got a certain level of skill that comes in handy starting out MP, but nothing there can prepare you for the situations you face in a stryde-sniper game. The map is great for those players who have devoted their time to mastering it, and could stay as a good tournament-competition map for people like that, but the notion that an approved map should have such an environment as Stryde-sniper's has always been ridiculous.

pb2 doesnt really have a solid tutorial—let's get that out of the way. i think that if a map "revolutionizes motion" for combat, then i think that is all the more reason to approve the map, especially if people enjoy playing on the map

bob67909 wrote:Also, can we discuss Stryde's own positions in this forum section?

why should we? his positions on other maps arent relevant to his position on this map

bob67909 wrote:in addition to players' ability to just jump over the box at the top to make a pot-shot,

theres a difference between jumping 2 pixels and being able to be killed than jumping 27 pixels and being able to be killed, especially if that difference matters according to the LEMARs

bob67909 wrote: In area maps with wider open spaces and rapid-fire weapons, this is not nearly so much of an issue because you can make out people's positions by where their fire is coming from and a single firing line doesn't dominate the entire map

are you sure about that? weapons with a lower rate of fire are less oppressive across lines of fire than a weapon with a 2 second reload? you must be joking

bob67909 wrote:If this new manual thing, and this new approval appeals process, are to have any meaning at all, they will allow us to admit to ourselves that this map should not be approved, and really never should have been at all.


this "manual hing" isnt new.

and for people who clearly arent smart enough to decipher it themselves:
they arent "to have any meaning at all." just think about what happens if they did:
any damn map in the game violates the LEMARS. therell literally be 2 maps that dont, and theyre probably garbage and unfun.

to finish, the only thing that stryde-sniper is valid to be unapproved for is being unable to jump onto the spawn dividers. but if you do that, ill make sure to post a list of the 202 maps or so that violate the "spirit and word" of the manual in the same manner, and pb2's "competitive" atmosphere will truly, then, see prosperity

Krutz
Advanced Usurpation Soldier [150]
 
Posts: 166
Joined: 20 October 2013, 16:52

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Max teabag » 2 December 2017, 22:44

bob67909 wrote: I might even go so far as to say that some new players have been driven away from competitive play, or maybe even PB2 in general, because the gameplay of stryde-sniper is so baffling to them. Once you've beaten the campaign, you've got a certain level of skill that comes in handy starting out MP, but nothing there can prepare you for the situations you face in a stryde-sniper game. The map is great for those players who have devoted their time to mastering it, and could stay as a good tournament-competition map for people like that, but the notion that an approved map should have such an environment as Stryde-sniper's has always been ridiculous.



Map approved -> Map got popular -> People devote time into the map -> People master the map -> New players get crushed.
People would not have devoted their efforts to mastering the map if it wasn't approved in the first place.
You're saying that we should punish players who devote time to mastering one particular map by unapproving if they get too good at it.
In essence, you argue that if a map gets too popular & players are too devoted, it should be unapproved.

Players will be discouraged from playing too good, map makers will get punished if their maps get too popular.

I think your argument is deeply flawed.
Max Teabag
User avatar
Max teabag
Usurpation Soldier [50]
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 15 July 2013, 13:41

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby bob67909 » 3 December 2017, 00:35

Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote:(Krutz incorrectly says the shot takes 110 health immediately, which is easily shown false by the actual content of the video)




Bad quality image, but this is from his reply post: http://prntscr.com/hiapuk
Maybe you're thinking of a different video in this thread, but this one was what grabbed my attention.
Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote:but they're also completely irrelevant.

except they weren't because tburn claimed that you could fatally be killed from spawn to spawn, and neither 110 damage nor 143 damage (which is an additive damage total) is fatal

Death about one second after a shot seems pretty fatal to me. If my doctor told me I had a terminal disease that would kill me in twenty minutes from the diagnosis, I'd still fear for my life. Once you account for lag and other random variables in a match, 143 damage is a death sentence for all intents and purposes.

Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote:or just go into a DM and watch the mass amounts of ordinary spawnkilling that happen in this map

thats not a valid argument to make, as that is a problem with the game and not the map
any map maker can only do so much to prevent "spawn-killing" in their map in deathmatch

This doesn't rebut the actual point I was making, which is that the extremely cramped environment of stryde-sniper in a near-full match in DM leads to an absurdly high volume of spawnkilling that you just won't see in most other maps.

Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote:I might even go so far as to say that some new players have been driven away from competitive play, or maybe even PB2 in general, because the gameplay of stryde-sniper is so baffling to them.

this is just a little ridiculous, if a single map "drove people" to never play the game again then im not really sure what to tell you

If a single map dominates the servers to the point where the great diversity of the community's creations is not at all represented, and that map happens not to be of many people's tastes, then it's not hard to see why some people might not want to stick around. Nothing wrong with a devoted subcommunity, but plenty wrong with one that smothers the potential for any other such communities. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote:Once you've beaten the campaign, you've got a certain level of skill that comes in handy starting out MP, but nothing there can prepare you for the situations you face in a stryde-sniper game. The map is great for those players who have devoted their time to mastering it, and could stay as a good tournament-competition map for people like that, but the notion that an approved map should have such an environment as Stryde-sniper's has always been ridiculous.

pb2 doesnt really have a solid tutorial—let's get that out of the way. i think that if a map "revolutionizes motion" for combat, then i think that is all the more reason to approve the map, especially if people enjoy playing on the map

This is a bad standard to use here, because various slow-motion maps (frostbyte's snipers, etc) and silent phoenix's "Outside Space" also "revolutionized" the way people moved and played--and it was later decided that the gameplay created by their environments was in violation of the approval standards. Obviously these maps had special features beyond self-boosting, but if egrw1 with its smaller mechanical quirks deserves to be edited so that it can better conform to the guidelines, then stryde-sniper deserves similar scrutiny.

Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote:Also, can we discuss Stryde's own positions in this forum section?

why should we? his positions on other maps arent relevant to his position on this map

Because Stryde applies a certain standard to say a map should be unapproved, it's only fair to show how that standard can be used to show that his own map should be unapproved.

Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote:in addition to players' ability to just jump over the box at the top to make a pot-shot,

theres a difference between jumping 2 pixels and being able to be killed than jumping 27 pixels and being able to be killed, especially if that difference matters according to the LEMARs

If the difference in travel time between jumping 2 pixels and 27 pixels is just a second or less, I don't think nitpicking over pixel counts is a productive exercise.

Krutz wrote:
bob67909 wrote: In area maps with wider open spaces and rapid-fire weapons, this is not nearly so much of an issue because you can make out people's positions by where their fire is coming from and a single firing line doesn't dominate the entire map

are you sure about that? weapons with a lower rate of fire are less oppressive across lines of fire than a weapon with a 2 second reload? you must be joking

With rapid-fire weapons in a map with open spaces, since you know where your opponent is coming from, it's possible to stake out a position, wait for opponents to come, then play strategically to get the upper hand. Spamming across long distances is very often a terrible strategy for this reason. But with a one-hit KO weapon in this sort of environment, much more of the gameplay environment is dependent on luck and initial position. A lucky kill only takes a lucky shot, and a lucky shot only takes a few milliseconds. With Stryde-sniper in particular, these problems are compounded because the open space is stretched across the entire diameter of the map, there are no routes of escape from the killing ground once you're in it, and with a near-full game conditions are cramped beyond belief.

Krutz wrote:and for people who clearly arent smart enough to decipher it themselves:
they arent "to have any meaning at all." just think about what happens if they did:
any damn map in the game violates the LEMARS. therell literally be 2 maps that dont, and theyre probably garbage and unfun.

to finish, the only thing that stryde-sniper is valid to be unapproved for is being unable to jump onto the spawn dividers. but if you do that, ill make sure to post a list of the 202 maps or so that violate the "spirit and word" of the manual in the same manner, and pb2's "competitive" atmosphere will truly, then, see prosperity

The first paragraph of this is ridiculous hyperbole and it demonstrates pretty clearly that your wanting to defend this map trumps your willingness to hold it to any reasonable standards. My main point is that this new forum section gives us a great opportunity to finally apply reasonable standards to PB2's approved maps, and stryde-sniper is pretty clearly a violation of some of those standards.

Max teabag wrote:Map approved -> Map got popular -> People devote time into the map -> People master the map -> New players get crushed.
People would not have devoted their efforts to mastering the map if it wasn't approved in the first place.
You're saying that we should punish players who devote time to mastering one particular map by unapproving if they get too good at it.
In essence, you argue that if a map gets too popular & players are too devoted, it should be unapproved.

Players will be discouraged from playing too good, map makers will get punished if their maps get too popular.

I think your argument is deeply flawed.

Your representation of what I've said is deeply flawed, and the fact that this was the only part of my post that you latched onto shows that. Stryde-sniper encourages a highly particularized style of play involving techniques which the level editor manual discourages from dominating gameplay in approved maps, among other flaws. The fact that it has become so popular with people who know how to exploit its flaws only exacerbates this problem. Once upon a time, people got extremely good at camping in ijer-sector, and they developed this strategy into a skill of its own right. The map was rightly edited to do away with this flaw. Stryde-sniper encourages tactics which are not quite as egregious as ijer-sector's, but come close in (1) being explicitly discouraged against in the level editor manual, (2) their extreme particularity to the map itself, (3) their being especially disadvantageous to new players--in that order.

I also think you're wrong to assume that people wouldn't have devoted any time to mastering the map if it were never approved, because in years gone by people spent hours and hours trying to master juggernaut maps, ghost maps, class-based COOP maps, and highly innovative TDM maps like aslang and boze's fightforthebase maps. If Stryde-sniper had come out and people had seen the same appeal in it then as they do now, we would still have a devoted subcommunity playing it today. But we'll never know if this would have happened, because the map was approved as over-hastily it was made, and the rest is history. If you think stryde-sniper needs approval as a crutch to be popular, then maybe you think it doesn't deserve approval after all.

bob67909
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Joined: 1 July 2014, 21:06

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Stryde » 3 December 2017, 00:55

bob67909 wrote:Death about one second after a shot seems pretty fatal to me. If my doctor told me I had a terminal disease that would kill me in twenty minutes from the diagnosis, I'd still fear for my life.

lol

bob67909 wrote: The fact that it has become so popular with people who know how to exploit its flaws only exacerbates this problem. Once upon a time, people got extremely good at camping in ijer-sector, and they developed this strategy into a skill of its own right. The map was rightly edited to do away with this flaw.


Again, multiple people have posted in this thread, specifically Sparrow and tburn themselves, saying the COOP spawnkill is rare and hasn't even been observed in Plazma League, an event that's been around under different names now for about 7 months or so?

bob67909 wrote: If Stryde-sniper had come out and people had seen the same appeal in it then as they do now, we would still have a devoted subcommunity playing it today. But we'll never know if this would have happened, because the map was approved as over-hastily it was made, and the rest is history.

Here's the history on Stryde-sniper. It's not the first sniper map made. The first sniper map made was by iJer, a former PB2 mod. The second sniper map ever made was Max teabag-sniperwars. The third sniper map made was Stryde-sniper. iJer-sniper was approved immediately after the release of the sniper rifle by PixelVoxel. All of the maps mentioned above were made within a day of the sniper rifle update. A week goes by, Stryde-sniper, iJer-sniper, and Max teabag-sniperwars are held in server and being played consistently, with Stryde-sniper being hosted more than Max teabag-sniperwars, and that being hosted more than iJer-sniper. A map database glitch happens, and many maps get corrupted, including Stryde-sniper. I remade it the following day, and it was shortly approved (probably a week) after, as well as Max teabag-sniperwars, by PixelVoxel. PixelVoxel had a reputation of needing 25+ votes and community support (the map being hosted in servers over weeks) before approving maps. Stryde-sniper wasn't hastily approved, or created. Just because any map seems simplistic doesn't mean that map owner hasn't spent time working on that map for more than a day.

Stryde
Moderator
 
Posts: 361
Joined: 9 November 2015, 02:17

Next

Return to Removal Requests Archive

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



cron