(R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby PearAmeeP » 4 November 2015, 00:44

I think it's mostly okay but hey im pretty excited for this game i don't care how bad or how good it will be all that really matters to me is how much work you guys put in to it that's what counts and i know mingo, spirit and eric have been working their butts of to actually finish this game and if people don't like (easiest solution) Just don't play xD (If you want solution but if you're going to complain) Smash your computer wish a metal baseball bat and that should do! :D

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P.S Hope this will revive plazma burst 2 oh and also try making this a add for youtube or something im sure that would definitley revive plazma burst 2 considering everyone in the world uses it! Yep even my mom... xD

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby master derk300 » 4 November 2015, 00:49

1) Look the top 100 players almost all are random people who i have never seen on this game and if i have played with them they are probably bad and i dont remember people who are bad srry :P

2)Is that or you start always with guns so u can deal with campers.

3)Well in my opinion snipe wars and rails are easier than arenas maps.

4) Yeah doomwrath idea was fine i guess.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby zakrzew » 4 November 2015, 01:16

HI i just wanted to show you one problem connected with current pp system (It probably may happen in some other similar systems).
Well lately (since month?) ranked matches on eu are extremely dead. I know u can say that generally (in all servers) there aren't many ranked matches on(idk how about cali but probably it's the same). But the difference between eu and wash is surprisingly big. Everyday im on wash ranked i can see many people who can change my ppp . On the other hand on eu there is almost noone (like sometimes there's just nobody sometimes 1-2 players a day) . The problem is suddently my ping on evenings on wash started to be 180-200 so i can get ppp only on eu.

Somewhen i really liked the idea that "better" player gives u more pp/ppp, or player with amount of pp/ppp simmilar to yours gives you more etc.. , but now it just makes impossible for people from eu who can't play on wash to have high amount of ppp/pp.

I didn't show here how the new system could look like ,but i guess in ranking system this is something that shouldn't happen.I think i will try to think about this later becouse now i need to go sleep :D

Now i can only watch myself loosin 1st place dem i cri :'c
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby The Awakening » 4 November 2015, 03:45

zakrzew wrote:HI i just wanted to show you one problem connected with current pp system (It probably may happen in some other similar systems).
Well lately (since month?) ranked matches on eu are extremely dead. I know u can say that generally (in all servers) there aren't many ranked matches on(idk how about cali but probably it's the same). But the difference between eu and wash is surprisingly big. Everyday im on wash ranked i can see many people who can change my ppp . On the other hand on eu there is almost noone (like sometimes there's just nobody sometimes 1-2 players a day) . The problem is suddently my ping on evenings on wash started to be 180-200 so i can get ppp only on eu.

Somewhen i really liked the idea that "better" player gives u more pp/ppp, or player with amount of pp/ppp simmilar to yours gives you more etc.. , but now it just makes impossible for people from eu who can't play on wash to have high amount of ppp/pp.

I didn't show here how the new system could look like ,but i guess in ranking system this is something that shouldn't happen.I think i will try to think about this later becouse now i need to go sleep :D

Now i can only watch myself loosin 1st place dem i cri :'c


That is true basically the only server that has been dead since I can remember we need to focus more on players first because well look at the Cali server its packed well not exactly packed but most play in that server like about 300-400 everyday compare it to Wash witch would be around 72-85 on average the max players I have seen in E.U. Is about 40, after we get done with placing player in just maybe 1-2 servers we can focus more on PP.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby monkeyman2535 » 4 November 2015, 04:33

Jesus balls my eyes are drowning in seas of text in this thread.
What I've noticed here is that everyone wants to come up with new/powerful incentives for playing approved maps, for not farming, for making everything new and cool and active and lovely again.
But if it requires a wall of text for you to explain a ranking system in cursory detail, you're doing it wrong. This is probably one of the greatest places you can possibly apply the principle of KISS-- "Keep it simple, stupid".
My computer science teacher once told us all that a fundamental lesson we can all learn from programmers is the idea that we "throw the first version out". If something becomes so complicated and convoluted and is so full of things that have to account for exceptional cases and your system looks like a huge wad of crap you just threw together that's about to fall down, throw the first version out.

PP has failed. So let's get rid of it. Don't try to improve it-- it's past that point. Re-institute a system based off kills and KDR so that players are focused on being top of their game, not chasing around people with around their amount of PP.
Farming is not an issue right now. It's so odd that so many people are so focused on it being a tremendous problem-- it's really not. Did the old KDR/kills-based top 100 have farmers? Sure! But was it active? Hell yes! Our current top 100 is dead-- absolutely, entirely dead. If any system can reinvigorate it, it would be this one.

And do you still want a fix for farming? Here's an idea. Make it so that approved maps can be played either as "approved matches", which are just approved maps, where kills and KDR count, and guests are disallowed, or in "fun matches" (come up with a better name later), which can be approved maps or custom maps, where everyone is allowed and kills and KDR do not count. Make it so that you cannot play a private match in "approved matches", so anyone can join or spectate, therefore making farmers ridiculously easy to report. A built-in system where you can take screenshots ingame and send them to staff members would allow players to report offenses even more easily.
And ping limit? Let ping limit be whatever the hell you want. If you want to play with laggers, that's your choice. At least the laggers would be allowed to play at all.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby Krutz » 4 November 2015, 04:40

The Awakening wrote:about 300-400 everyday compare it to Wash witch would be around 72-85 on average the max players I have seen in E.U. Is about 40, after we get done with placing player in just maybe 1-2 servers we can focus more on PP.

pretty sure the numbers youre referring to represent the amount of connections in a past 24 hours, not the amount of people currently in the servers

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 4 November 2015, 06:08

monkeyman2535 wrote:Jesus balls my eyes are drowning in seas of text in this thread...


As I stated before to another reply, I apologize for the large wall of text in the original post. I didn't really have the time to synthesize all these ideas and really wanted something up at the moment. As a result, it ended up being huge.

For your reply... I actually cannot see any major flaws in it. The thing that strikes me is that the majority of the community does agree that the old system was better. I think this claim can be easily substantiated with a site poll too.

For PP, there's just so many confounding variables that can ruin its legitimacy. While it does try to act more like an artificial matchmaking system, I do agree that it is too complicated.

Regardless, I'd still like to hear what others have to say, regardless as to how long or complex their replies may be. While some solutions might not be applicable here, perhaps some other issues can arise from this thread from other members, or even new alternatives.

I'd also like to run a poll on forums for perhaps two weeks. Does anyone know what exactly are all the ranking systems Gurt has implemented and how they work?
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby artichokecat » 4 November 2015, 08:22

Some things I observed in this thread
(This is coming from a relative noob who doesn't participate in ranked due to his noob-ness
and also knows nothing about the ranked system other than what he has seen here)

monkeyman2535 wrote:throw the first version out.

Technically the K/D system was the first one (according to what I saw here) and it WAS thrown out

Also I find it funny that this was said:
master derk300 wrote:1) Look the top 100 players almost all are random people who i have never seen on this game and if i have played with them they are probably bad and i dont remember people who are bad srry :P

And the player at the top of the leaderboards has the next reply directly following it.

Also this:
master derk300 wrote:3) Well i see it unfair to play agaisnt people who just spam their weapons and doesnt matter if you are good or bad u will die if you are in a bad spot is that simple dude. Noobs spamming can actually beat any kind of skill player.


and this:
spirit9871 wrote: This is why Phase I is still vital. More maps could have possibly given more to offer to new players, but it's hard starting them up, considering that we don't have a lot of players. So right now, we're facing this double-edged sword also.

Yes. The solution is to make new, better maps without these flaws of places where people can camp and be invincible, or maps where if you dont start off with a gun and ur very doomed
(i'm thinking of a particular map but I wont name names)

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby NNC » 4 November 2015, 14:40

k, let's be honest
Oh no! I can't farm in PP-based system that easily! I should cry about this in every topic so the ranking system would be reverted back to the most exploitable one, and then I'll farm my way to the top!


@monkeyman2535
"KISS" can also be un-abbreviated as "keep it simple & stupid", and this is the exact problem with KDR-based ranking. It was too simple and had pretty much no defence against farmers and similar jerks. Everyone was able to see the result, but not everyone has learned the lesson.

So, you say that farming is not an issue right now? Have you ever thought about the reason? Maybe the reason is the implementation of PP?

Just because the top 100 was more active with the previous ranking system, doesn't necessarily mean it was good and every player in it was a real pro and not a random farmer. You wouldn't fix anything at all by filling the top with active farmers.

Before you think about throwing PP out, think about what could replace it. KDR? Eh, do not step on this rake again.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 4 November 2015, 18:36

artichokecat wrote:
spirit9871 wrote: This is why Phase I is still vital. More maps could have possibly given more to offer to new players, but it's hard starting them up, considering that we don't have a lot of players. So right now, we're facing this double-edged sword also.

Yes. The solution is to make new, better maps without these flaws of places where people can camp and be invincible, or maps where if you dont start off with a gun and ur very doomed
(i'm thinking of a particular map but I wont name names)


That's actually not what I meant; I meant to say that we should be utilizing pre-existing maps into the servers to increase variety. We don't really need new maps to be fair; there's so many of them in storage that making more would be a waste of time.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby artichokecat » 4 November 2015, 19:22

spirit9871 wrote:That's actually not what I meant; I meant to say that we should be utilizing pre-existing maps into the servers to increase variety. We don't really need new maps to be fair; there's so many of them in storage that making more would be a waste of time.


Yeah I guess so.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby The Murk » 5 November 2015, 00:03

Great idea, Spirit. You're doing terrific bro, I'm proud. May I make a suggestion though?
Since we have PP rankings as you stated, how about we change the Approval standards?
To avoid new maps being approved, and poorly made maps we can change the standards..


Approval Idea:
1. At a minimum of 100 votes, with a majority being five stars.
2. The map has to be able sized a bit more, with PB2's always growing lag issues I noticed a spawning problem during multiple 1v1. When someone repeatedly sword, the enemy usually spawns close to the area around the sworder. So, a bigger map for now on would help reduce this problem.
3. Perhaps instead of one or two people approving maps, you train your head-moderator and higher staffing to approve maps. Since you have a guide for approval, more people approving would seem more productive since you're working on PB2.5, right?

^~^ But greatly done, Spirit.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby monkeyman2535 » 5 November 2015, 02:24

NNC wrote:"KISS" can also be un-abbreviated as "keep it simple & stupid"

Not clever, sorry.
NNC wrote:Various ramblings about farmers

Based on the fact that your account number is in the 800-thousands, I'm not sure if you've ever even been in PB2 while we were on the KDR system. If you in fact were not there, I'd like to let you know that this horrible specter of oh-so-terrifying farmers was not really that much of an issue. I don't even remember anyone being conspicuously banned for farming until the PP system.
Also-- I provided a viable solution for farming in my post, which you might've seen if you'd bothered to read it. Better luck next time! ^_^
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 5 November 2015, 02:49

The Murk wrote:[i][color=#800080]Great idea, Spirit. You're doing terrific bro, I'm proud.


Approving maps is actually another major thing we'd like to discuss, considering the current system does need work. And thanks for the positive words; people like you who are still here keep us moving. :)

Side-note: Mingo and I have decided that once we reach a definite conclusion or a certain amount of weeks in discussing this matter, we will make a Revivalist video compiling all the information everyone has shared (yes, this includes certain member replies quoted in the video as well). So that's something to look forward to once we're done discussing this matter.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby The Murk » 5 November 2015, 03:02

Side-note: Mingo and I have decided that once we reach a definite conclusion or a certain amount of weeks in discussing this matter, we will make a Revivalist video compiling all the information everyone has shared (yes, this includes certain member replies quoted in the video as well). So that's something to look forward to once we're done discussing this matter.


I'm sorry Spirit, but being a revivalist has nothing to do with publicity. It isn't to promote yourself, but the motion. So if anything I say is on it plsh censor my name out. I want the revivalist rewarded, not the individuals.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby Sniper J » 5 November 2015, 03:06

Very interesting ideas but tbh, there is no perfect ranking system. Everyone we'll ever come up with will have at least one flaw and that flaw will make people complain. I hate every system that there has been since the first one. It's difficult to move up in the Top 100 because you can only gain a certain amount and that amount is based off your PPP which is hard to get since no one has any, people don't have enough, or people with PPP are inactive. It's honestly stupid that people care so much about a ranking system so stupid. I'm hoping that the ranking system will be different for PB2.5.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 5 November 2015, 04:00

The Murk wrote:I'm sorry Spirit, but being a revivalist has nothing to do with publicity. It isn't to promote yourself, but the motion. So if anything I say is on it plsh censor my name out. I want the revivalist rewarded, not the individuals.


You have a point, but this is mostly something Mingo and I wanted to do to give credit to those using their critical thinking skills to help make this game a better place. It may also promote those to be more active in sharing their ideas as well; to show that we really are listening to what they have to say.

Regardless, if anyone wants to remain anonymous, by all means I ensure they will remain so in the video. The Revivalist project will ultimately be rewarded as long as people stay motivated to share their ideas by making them realize we're listening to them.

Sniper J wrote:Very interesting ideas but tbh, there is no perfect ranking system. Everyone we'll ever come up with will have at least one flaw and that flaw will make people complain. I hate every system that there has been since the first one. It's difficult to move up in the Top 100 because you can only gain a certain amount and that amount is based off your PPP which is hard to get since no one has any, people don't have enough, or people with PPP are inactive. It's honestly stupid that people care so much about a ranking system so stupid. I'm hoping that the ranking system will be different for PB2.5.


I do agree that caring so much about the ranking system helps no one and that there will most likely never be a "perfect" one. However, there are definitely ways we can possibly make things better, and perhaps by exploring them here, the odds of Gurt implementing such ideas increase.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby NNC » 6 November 2015, 19:41

monkeyman2535 wrote:Not clever
It's a somewhat-common variation, and, clever or not, it works, while over-simplification isn't a good thing sometimes.

Also, I didn't respond to that solution because it's nothing new. I don't say it couldn't work - it actually could, especially when "kills and KDR" phrase is replaced with "PP"; I just have not found a point of responding to a similar suggestion for once again - it's getting boring after ages of same/identical suggestions. I had nothing to say about it anyway.

monkeyman2535 wrote:this horrible specter of oh-so-terrifying farmers was not really that much of an issue
Pffft. How about the "single team gang", when few players from the top go to a TDM match just to make a 5-7 players team and then to rekt everyone, not allowing their enemies to get a single gun? Yes, that's not exactly farming, but stll a completely unfair tactic. You should be able to understand who am I reffering to.
And it's not the only issue; there was a lot of them. It's strange you have not noticed them. But maybe you was playing only for fun w/o thinking about what do others do.

monkeyman2535 wrote:I don't even remember anyone being conspicuously banned for farming until the PP system.
Maybe that's because of a number of security updates, which were released around the same time as PP?
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby Sniper J » 7 November 2015, 02:54

When PP was implemented, was probably when the game started declining. I feel as though that the downwards spiral that the game has been set on is a direct result of the PP system. Peope got fed up with the system because it's too difficult to figure out and there's so many flaws with it, it's not even funny. The term "PP pizza sauce" never existed until PP and people never fought over they old system because it was kill based and you don't lose kills.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby Terabrion » 7 November 2015, 03:44

Sniper J wrote:When PP was implemented, was probably when the game started declining. I feel as though that the downwards spiral that the game has been set on is a direct result of the PP system. Peope got fed up with the system because it's too difficult to figure out and there's so many flaws with it, it's not even funny. The term "PP woman of the night" never existed until PP and people never fought over they old system because it was kill based and you don't lose kills.

Or maybe because the ping limit started there? Hmpf.
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