(R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

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(R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 3 November 2015, 03:52

AUDIO VERSION OF THE TEXT BELOW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeIEsIkWZ3U

So as Mingo and I stated before in the video regarding Phase II of the Revivalist Project, Phase II will focus directly on problems in PB2 regarding the gameplay, community, etc. This is our first topic regarding such matters, and we hope later on we can discuss among ourselves probable solutions to this issue.

Here's how this system will work:

The first post will introduce the problem, alongside what we believe are root causes to them. Consider it as a mission briefing, if you like.

From there, we hope that replies coming in will either agree or disagree with our stance and add feedback regarding the matter. At the end of each week or so, we will compile up what people have said and reach certain conclusions. The cycle repeats as we continue to hammer down our own thoughts to make a potentially perfect model.

Our first topic of order will be the ranking system.

We decided to start with this heavy topic because it is something of heavy debate over the past few months in the community. The ranking system is an integral part of the PB2 community; for many people, it gives them something to strive for. This means removing it would be out of the question if we wish what is best for the entire, if not, majority of the community.

Here are basic overviews of two major issues we would like to discuss first and then expand on:

The most common issue stated with the ranking system is the farming. Farming has become such a problem with the current ranking system that it is considered an offense to Staff. And why shouldn't it be considered that; simply put, farming is the easiest, most universal way for players to cheat the system.

The second issue comes the fact that the PP system simply does not serve as an accurate indicator of skill. It has become nearly impossible to gain PP from players, as most of them tend to have none. Because of this, it becomes a hassle for higher-level players to move up the ranking list without intentionally baiting other higher-level players into combat to gain their PP. But of course, even that prospect is uncertain.


Here's our hypothesis as to why this is happening: the reason why a functional ranking system cannot be properly implemented into PB2 is because the credibility of ranking systems ultimately rely on one major fact which is matchmaking.

A ranking system cannot be considered even half credible if the people playing the game have so much freedom to the point where they can choose what games they wish to join, what maps, which players to fight, and when to leave. If you're getting your ass kicked by someone who may be of equal or slightly higher skill level than you, 9 times out of 10, you are going to leave so you can play another match against lower-level players.

Gurt realized this problem, hence tried changing the original KD system into the PP system. Why? Because the PP system was supposed to work as an artificial matchmaking system.

PP served as a means of promoting players to fight others at their level or beyond. If you tried to prey on lower-level players, the losses you'd make in one death would potentially outweigh the gains in five kills, whereas you'd gain a fair amount of PP fighting those who truly challenge you.

All this does however, is frustrate higher-level players even further. Higher-level players now have to be cautious of what matches they choose to join, because they would gain practically nothing in a match against players that have less PP than them. After all, it's not like you can choose what specific time certain people come into a certain match, so you find that such players hop around games.

The consequences of this are severe; maps are easily abandoned and PP becomes the only thing that matters to players rather than having actual fun. We are also certain this has highly contributed to the toxicity we are seeing today; players well-known for their positions on the leaderboards are more likely to get upset after dying, considering how scarce gaining PP is nowadays.

Some probable solutions?

Unfortunately, it's hard to say in this case. As stated before, a ranking system doesn't work because there is no matchmaking. Getting rid of the ranking system will only amputate one major factor in PB2. Implementing matchmaking is impossible too, since there are so few players available online. You'd have to wait longer to set up one match in PB2 than the Master Chief Collection on its launch day.

But if this problem is not fully solvable, at the very least there are reasonable ways to lower the effects.

One way is resetting the PPs of all players every two to three months. Now, this may upset many of you (especially those who have long held a position on the leaderboards), but suffice to say that its practically impossible to move up anywhere in the Top 20 thanks to the current system. Doing this will allow all players to have a chance on being at the Top 100 list; it will be more geared towards rewarding the improvement of skill in players rather than their self-preservation techniques in abandoning games.

Another suggestion is to make players who have less than a certain amount of kills ineligible to gain/lose PP. The reason for this is to ensure that lower-level players who may get a few lucky shots onto a high-ranking player won't bomb their PPs, as well as to ensure that high-ranking players won't feast on lower-ranking players who have an unusual amount of PP. During this time, these players can stockpile PP from others without losing their own, so once they are eligible to get on the ranking system, they will have a set amount of PP to start with.

The kill-requirement should perhaps be set to about 1000. From there, players can start gaining or losing PP, but will not be eligible to reach the Top 100. Then, once the player scores 2000 to 3000 kills, they are eligible in being on the Top 100. This is to ensure that players won't be bloated with PP once they meet the first requirement and unfairly advance on the leaderboards.

Are these solutions perfect? Of course not; we're hoping you guys can tear these ideas apart and help rebuild new thoughts with your own personal experiences. This is not absolute; every reply from here will build up the foundation to a potentially powerful idea that can help make this game a more enjoyable place for the community.

Please leave feedback/criticism whenever possible. And if you're reading this Gurt, please consider these ideas. If they are too late to implement into PB2, then perhaps these problems from before can be rectified in PB2.5 with a little more support.

Thank you.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby gordonwater » 3 November 2015, 05:56

Huh, why not get rid of pp system and keep kd system in and have an anti-afking system built in game so that afkers cannot stay in game no more than 20 seconds. If they don't move for like 20 seconds, they get kicked out of game automatically. Even when they get killed, the afk system must work. You know in dm games, you can press esc key to stay in. That anti-afking system must not apply to it.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby mingo1 » 3 November 2015, 08:42

gordonwater wrote:Huh, why not get rid of pp system and keep kd system in and have an anti-afking system built in game so that afkers cannot stay in game no more than 20 seconds. If they don't move for like 20 seconds, they get kicked out of game automatically. Even when they get killed, the afk system must work. You know in dm games, you can press esc key to stay in. That anti-afking system must not apply to it.


Interesting!

However, Eric spent quite a bit of time coding the PP system and I doubt he wants to just shaft his own work; admittedly, he may know that the system has an issue, but I doubt he'll address it.

What Spirit describes makes sense in my opinion. I may be biased since I'm part of the Revivalists, but yeh.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby NNC » 3 November 2015, 10:24

gordonwater wrote:why not get rid of pp system and keep kd system
Farming. Farming much easier in KD-based ranking.

gordonwater wrote:If they don't move for like 20 seconds, they get kicked out of game automatically.
I can already imagine someone holding the jump button just to not get kicked. In other words, it'd be too easy to "cheat" such anti-AFK system.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby xChakra » 3 November 2015, 12:51

Honestly, the system is as anti-farm and good as PP will ever get.
The sheer small amount of PP is due to the major lack of activity in ranked games.
About 20-40% of todays challengers have been inactive for 20+ days, some with top 100, only the percent is higher!
Eric removed if you're inactive for 14 days, you're off the leaderboards, but he notices how dead this game is.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby superfrank1004 » 3 November 2015, 13:01

[quote="gordonwater"]Huh, why not get rid of pp system and keep kd system in and have an anti-afking system built in game so that afkers cannot stay in game no more than 20 seconds.


Well your right they should get rid of pp system and keep the kdr system like it was last time when they began this game.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby Terabrion » 3 November 2015, 15:01

I fear the fact that you didn't even mention ping limit and its obvious issue, the huge segregation it has made then inactivity appeared, that's a fact. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Note that you should start expressing your points in much shorter texts, like seriously and without an attempt of offense...
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 3 November 2015, 15:10

NNC wrote:
gordonwater wrote:why not get rid of pp system and keep kd system
Farming. Farming much easier in KD-based ranking.


Precisely. Gurt realized the KD system was too easy to farm; all you had to do was hop into matches with weak players and kill them while avoiding stronger players. So while other elite players are playing fairly, those who reached the Top 10 were simply hopping around. The PP system, theoretically, was supposed to solve that, but it didn't. Why? Because the same exact problem still arises.

xChakra wrote:Honestly, the system is as anti-farm and good as PP will ever get.
The sheer small amount of PP is due to the major lack of activity in ranked games.
About 20-40% of todays challengers have been inactive for 20+ days, some with top 100, only the percent is higher!
Eric removed if you're inactive for 14 days, you're off the leaderboards, but he notices how dead this game is.


I'm a bit skeptical about the idea that this is as good as it can get. My first solution especially, if it can't be implemented into PB2, will have a huge effect in PB2.5 if there's still a ranking system. Automatically resetting everyone's PPs after a certain amount of time will allow a set amount of PP to be flowing around the community again. Though undeniably, my solution is flimsy as well...

Terabrion wrote:I fear the fact that you didn't even mention ping limit and its obvious issue, the huge segregation it has made then inactivity appeared, that's a fact. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Note that you should start expressing your points in much shorter texts, like seriously and without an attempt of offense...


Ping limit is a totally different issue altogether, but we do have plans on mentioning it later.

I apologize for the long text, but I felt it was necessary since this is such a huge problem with so many fronts. We're making an audio version for this text on the Revivalist YouTube channel.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby Terabrion » 3 November 2015, 15:18

It is not a different issue, segregation came with these ranking systems, unallowing lots of people of playing for ranking, there you get the reason of such inactivity in ranked.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby DoomWrath » 3 November 2015, 16:07

An idea I had for a global points system:

You get 1 point for every 3* or 4* rating on your map
You get 2 points for every 5* rating on your map
You get 2 points for every approved player kill - multiplied by your KDR
You lose 1 points for every approved death - multiplied by your KDR
You get 50 points for each campaign level played on Easy
You get 75 points for each campaign level played on Normal
You get 100 points for each campaign level played on Hard
You get 150 points for each campaign level played on Impossible
You get 25-500 points for each achievement unlocked on campaign mode (depending on achievement difficulty)

Then a tool to allow site admins to add a number of points (EG, 500) to a player's profile, for taking part in/winning an official PB2 event hosted on the forums. Art contest/Best maps of the Month/Official tournaments/etc

This system would not be perfect, but would include all parts of PB2. I pulled the numbers from the air, some calculations/tweaking would be necessary to balance it.

---

- To combat farming, kill logs would be implemented, which could flag up an account to site staff if it had killed another player more than 10 times in a row, or 25 times within 24 hours.

- Site staff should then have spectator access to private matches to check for farming - but with viewing of game chat off to allow privacy.

- A tool to remove a chunk of points/kills from a player should then be available to site admins/trusted mods. This tools would have to have plenty of logging to it, to prevent abuse. Notes for admins, kill log selection, etc.

---

To promote approved matches:

- Change MP system to "Custom" and "Approved", defaulting at approved. Guests can only play custom. The ping limit is removed, and set by the match creator, or players with the -ping [number] command.

- The selection of approved maps is modified. Old/outdated maps are removed from the pool, or fixed up by Eric or the site admins to ensure the map is fair and playable, but still comparable to current generation approved maps.

- 3 approved games (a DM, a TDM, and a CO-OP), on a randomly chosen approved map are always open. These matches close and regen with a new map every 30 minutes.

- Points for killing players could be increased (2x, 3x, etc) for "Happy Hours" at random points throughout the day, to make people jump onto MP. These could be advertised on a ticker-tape style banner above the game window itself, in the same manner as the KD/PP/KDR bar.

- A 2x points multiplier for the first 25 kills of the day, which could be increased to a 5x for special events, such as game updates, christmas, game creation anniversary, and other special events.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby xChakra » 3 November 2015, 16:43

system should not be based on site stats, system should be based merely on any formation of points gained in ranked matches, not level dev, or campaign progress.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby NNC » 3 November 2015, 17:18

DoomWrath wrote:You get 1 point for every 3* or 4* rating on your map
You get 2 points for every 5* rating on your map
Then we'd get even more rate whores. There's already too many of them.

DoomWrath wrote:You get 50 points for each campaign level played on Easy
...
You get 150 points for each campaign level played on Impossible
Not sure about this. Many levels are actually much easier on Impossible than on Easy because of lowered enemies' HP. Levels 40 & 41 are a good example.

Also, would it reward more points for clearing an already completed level on same or lower difficulty? If yes, it'd be too easy to farm points by replaying early levels (or later levels on Impossible difficulty, same thing...). If no, there wouldn't be many players to look at the campaign at all.

I don't think that campaign progress should be a part of those global points. It'd be difficult to balance it + campaign money can be hacked easily.

DoomWrath wrote:- Points for killing players could be increased (2x, 3x, etc) for "Happy Hours" at random points throughout the day, to make people jump onto MP. These could be advertised on a ticker-tape style banner above the game window itself, in the same manner as the KD/PP/KDR bar.
Am I allowed to scream "deliciously exquisite pizza sauce NO"?
1. People would jump off MP right after a happy hour would end, rendering MP more dead than it would look w/o happy hours.
2. There are timezones, and players could miss those happy hours just because it's night time in their country.
3. Happy hours just look too random to be a part of something competitive.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby master derk300 » 3 November 2015, 19:30

Hi all,this is Master Derk 300 known as Tazzadar, DerkY or The best rager( lolz what ever) first of all excuse me for my bad english [i know its bad, just try to understand the main ideas i want to say :) ]

The top system in pb2 always has been terrible especially the k/d and PP system , why? First of all the k/d system was a dumb idea thanks for it alot of players with farm or camping got top 3 i dont want to say names, but people with game knowledge will know the players im talking to. The pp system has the same problem but the only difference is that not all people play PP games or when they play they just play snipe wars in wash or california servers paraphrasing most of the top 20 players arent dedicated or good enough to be there.

Now im gonna talk about how top system should be...

Here an idea:
1) The first top system was the best top ever it was about HOW MUCH KILLS U GET IN APPROVE MAPS ( i remember in my golden days i could get 1k-2k kills in few hours thats how i got rank 6th with effort and dedication. Now i look top 20 and all i see is few dedicated players and alot of people who dont deserve it) The top system should be like how much u kill people in approve maps per day,month or what ever just include this :P.

BUT THE CAMPERS OR FARMERS WILL BE IN TOP 20!!!

yeah i remember in that time alot of spammers or campers tried or acuatually got there because of it
In order to eliminate spammers and campers Eric should add ammo to the weapons so they wont do it.

Thanks for your time :D.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 3 November 2015, 20:55

DoomWrath wrote:An idea I had for a global points system...


This list is... actually pretty interesting. Since it's so huge, I'll need some time to discuss with Mingo as to each point you've suggested and leave back our own feedback. There are some points I am skeptical about that others have pointed out.

But generally, this is probably the most in-depth solution we've had thus far to this multi-edged problem. I suggest we start building up on this.

master derk300 wrote:
1) The first top system was the best top ever it was about HOW MUCH KILLS U GET IN APPROVE MAPS ( i remember in my golden days i could get 1k-2k kills in few hours thats how i got rank 6th with effort and dedication. Now i look top 20 and all i see is few dedicated players and alot of people who dont deserve it) The top system should be like how much u kill people in approve maps per day,month or what ever just include this :P.


If that's the case, then the ranking system will be more based on how much time people spend online rather than their actual skill. The farming problem will only return as well, though you seem to address it here:

master derk300 wrote:
BUT THE CAMPERS OR FARMERS WILL BE IN TOP 20!!!

yeah i remember in that time alot of spammers or campers tried or acuatually got there because of it
In order to eliminate spammers and campers Eric should add ammo to the weapons so they wont do it.


With all due respect, this is quite an extreme solution. Adding ammo into PB2 (while I do think the idea can benefit us) is an extremely radical change to the current system, and I can see others getting upset by its implementation.

The most I would suggest is perhaps a larger recharge time for weapons fired, but even then, that won't solve the farming problem. Skilled players don't really need to really worry about ammo, as they can easily smash down the competition. So while your solution could work in combating spammers and campers, it won't stop skilled players who choose to unfairly farm. I do believe it's a good idea, but definitely not a concrete answer to this issue.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby ezio auditor » 3 November 2015, 21:49

Well to start off the Kdr system is very flawed so using that to rank people is out of the question. You can't do it based on kills either since it wouldn't work out and farming would still be an issue.
PP is something eric worked hard on so he wont throw it away so how about keeping the current system and modifying it.
the PP system is supposed to allow people with equal/greater PP to face each other and gain PP correct? ( i may be wrong on this matter)
So how about....
A PP modification that can do the following.
1: the PP of all players will be Erased every 2-4 months (gives a lot of people the to gain PP)
2: when a high PP player kills a low PP player he will gain 0.01-0.04 points depending on the amount of points he has and the low level will lose 0.01-0.03 points.
3:when a low PP kills a high PP the low level will gain 0.06-0.09 points. and the high level will lose 0.03-0.05 points.
4:when a high PP kills a high PP they both gain 0.05 points since they are about equal PP level
5:please consider the following (the arrow means kill)

Overall Kdr 0.05= Low level -> high level= 0.05 PP gained High level -> low level= 0.01 gained
Overall Kdr 1.00= Low level -> high level= 0.06 PP gained High level -> low level= 0.02 gained
Overall Kdr 1.05= Low level -> high level= 0.07 PP gained High level -> low level=0.03 gained
Overall Kdr 2.00= Low level -> high level= 0.08 PP gained High level -> low level=0.04 gained
Overall Kdr 2.05= Low level -> high level= 0.09 PP gained High level -> low level=0.05 gained
Overall Kdr 3+ = Low level -> high level= 1.00 PP gained High level -> low level=0.06 gained

Overall Kdr 0.05= Low level -> high level= 0.05 PP lost High level -> low level= 0.01 lost
Overall Kdr 1.00= Low level -> high level= 0.06 PP lost High level -> low level= 0.02 lost
Overall Kdr 1.05= Low level -> high level= 0.07 PP lost High level -> low level=0.03 lost
Overall Kdr 2.00= Low level -> high level= 0.08 PP lost High level -> low level=0.04 lost
Overall Kdr 2.05= Low level -> high level= 0.09 PP lost High level -> low level=0.05 lost
Overall Kdr 3+ = Low level -> high level= 1.00 PP lost High level -> low level=0.06 lost

in this the Kdr system would come into play as well ( for example if u have a kdr of 0.05 and have low PP and you kill a high PP you gain 0.05 PP while the other person loses 0.01 PP) it would also stop farming since if you have a high kdr from farming you'll lose more PP if u get killed by high level or low level.

this system probably has tonnes of flaws please tell me what you think if u dont get it ill happily tell you what the system would do :D

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby xChakra » 3 November 2015, 22:29

Top 100 system flaws isn't much of a problem, reviving ranked matches is the point.
We get about 200-300 people ACTIVE on ranked, top 100 would look a lot better.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 3 November 2015, 22:59

ezio auditor wrote:Well to start off the Kdr system is very flawed so using that...


These numbers you listed out regarding kills and PP are all your calculations?

xChakra wrote:Top 100 system flaws isn't much of a problem, reviving ranked matches is the point.
We get about 200-300 people ACTIVE on ranked, top 100 would look a lot better.


That's a huge point, but before that itself can be addressed, we need to figure out another system as to how to incorporate some sort of training module for new players to be able to adapt to PB2. We had 4 years' worth of training, not to mention different maps for different mobility patterns. These new players can only look forward to Railwars and Sniperwars; that's basically a disaster for any new player that doesn't know how to make matches of their own.

This is why Phase I is still vital. More maps could have possibly given more to offer to new players, but it's hard starting them up, considering that we don't have a lot of players. So right now, we're facing this double-edged sword also.

While more players could definitely help solve this problem, we need to continue searching for alternate solutions using the community we have now. It's hard, perhaps practically impossible, but at the very least we can maybe uncover some flaws in other things as well.

The way I see it, more players is obviously a major issue here. If this continues to become a problem... I may possibly merge Phase II with Phase III, in that Phase III really focuses on addressing this issue.
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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby ezio auditor » 3 November 2015, 23:21

No it isn't ALL my calculations but its a rough sketch i want to see what people think before spending too much time on an idea that could or could not be useful

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby master derk300 » 3 November 2015, 23:40

I dont know how to reply lolz.
Spirit9871...

1) People with no skills cant get more kills than people with skills , thats a fact i know that because if you have seen the first top system you will know that all top 20 were players that play well and were dedicated.

2) Its the only solution to stop that kind of players, yes its radical but its the only way. cmon add infitive ammo in a game has no sense.

3) Well i see it unfair to play agaisnt people who just spam their weapons and doesnt matter if you are good or bad u will die if you are in a bad spot is that simple dude. Noobs spamming can actually beat any kind of skill player.

4) About farming... Well im pretty sure people still farming, but The designer of this game is the only one who can deal with these people. How? Probably adding how much kills and deaths u got for the day and who u killed.

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Re: (R) Revivalist Phase II Topic 1: Ranking System (R)

Postby spirit9871 » 4 November 2015, 00:00

Terabrion wrote:It is not a different issue, segregation came with these ranking systems, unallowing lots of people of playing for ranking, there you get the reason of such inactivity in ranked.


Ah, I see. However, I'd still like to save what you're saying for the next topic, in that segregation by ping limits and ranked and unranked servers deserves a lot more attention as a stand-alone thread. For now, I'd like to stay focused on what exactly is wrong with the algorithms regarding the PP system and such so we can efficiently solve issues one at a time.

ezio auditor wrote:No it isn't ALL my calculations but its a rough sketch i want to see what people think before spending too much time on an idea that could or could not be useful


I see. Mingo and I will look through these and see if there's any holes. This seems interesting, perhaps mixed in with some of Doom's points.

master derk300 wrote:
1) People with no skills cant get more kills than people with skills , thats a fact i know that because if you have seen the first top system you will know that all top 20 were players that play well and were dedicated.


That's not a given. Even if the Top 20 play well and are dedicated, does that account for those below them? Even if 100th place is playing unfairly, that still means there's something that needs to be fixed with the system.

master derk300 wrote:
2) Its the only solution to stop that kind of players, yes its radical but its the only way. cmon add infitive ammo in a game has no sense.


I'd like to disagree with that, especially on this point. Yes; finite ammo will help lower camping and spamming. But farming is more complicated than that; finite ammo won't stop stronger players from preying on the weaker. Moreover, in terms of PB2, it's too late to implement that, considering that would mean a total revision on all guns and how they worked with ammo.

Perhaps this could work in PB2.5 or PB3 (and if so, I'd like to see that happen). But this certainly won't solve everything, not to mention the main problem here.

master derk300 wrote:
3) Well i see it unfair to play agaisnt people who just spam their weapons and doesnt matter if you are good or bad u will die if you are in a bad spot is that simple dude. Noobs spamming can actually beat any kind of skill player.


I'm aware of that, and that's part of the reason why Stryde-Sniper and EGRW-1 are dominating the servers, since it's harder to camp and spam with those weapons. It is a serious problem, yes. But as I said before, campers and spammers aren't exactly the total bulk of these farmers.

master derk300 wrote:
4) About farming... Well im pretty sure people still farming, but The designer of this game is the only one who can deal with these people. How? Probably adding how much kills and deaths u got for the day and who u killed.


Confirming kills by human means would be impossible, considering how many people are playing on a daily basis (yes, even if it's not a lot of people, it's still a huge consumption of time recording all of it). However, as Doomwrath suggested in an earlier reply, perhaps systems can be implemented in not counting kills after killing someone a certain amount of times in one timespan.
The world is defined by those willing to act, not by those dreaming to act.
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