Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

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Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 1 April 2018, 15:44

Code: Select all
Type: Shotgun
Manufacturer: Civil Security
Faction: Civil Security
Slot: 3
Damage: 15-125
Accuracy: 25%
Rate of Fire: 3/second
Power: 0.5
Penetration: 1
Projectile count: 4
Projectile speed: 80

its just a pb2fied version of the keltec KSG to be kinda like a brother to the CS-OICW
https://imgur.com/a/2aV4A
also the % comes from the other two shotguns as i have no idea of how these values work like... 25% of a circle? 90 degrees?
anyway if would be a fast and spammy shotgun but it has little damage, penetration and power comparated to the other shotguns
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby DoomWrath » 2 April 2018, 13:53

Topic moved to "Other Art" as this is a rendition of a modern weapon with no connection or relevance to PB2 besides sharing a similar style.

Looks neat though, except the pump seems to not quite be where it should be, almost as if it was flipped horizontally.
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby butorinoks77 » 19 May 2019, 03:05

not bad (but why its here? its need be on still art topic! not here...)

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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 23 May 2019, 01:47

staff devided to move it because "its too similar to real life guns"
i disagree with them and agree with you, also, should i submit it for the fanart thing that is going on?
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Kostadin 8 » 23 May 2019, 05:08

phsc wrote:staff devided to move it because "its too similar to real life guns"
i disagree with them and agree with you, also, should i submit it for the fanart thing that is going on?

honestly it looks like the bullpup shot gun from gta 5
October 29th, 2016-August 04th, 2018
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Roxxar » 23 May 2019, 12:03

you know me, you know my stance on "real life guns"

i think there's too many "real life guns" or any other sci-fi/futuristic based guns drawn. if even the gun nut addict doomwrath can say that this has little aesthetic similarity to pb2 other than the art-style (i.e. too "modern" by our standards), then i think its fair to say that these "real life guns" just dont fit in.

not trying to interject my opinion about anything else you've made, but the same goes for the AUG-style and SCAR-style weapons you also submitted. these real life guns just dont fit imo

but what does anyone here care when half of what this community wants is to turn this into a 2D call of duty game
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 23 May 2019, 23:29

so here is what i think, why not just have it all?

maybe not add the generic modernesque guns into the campaign and allow them in the level editor, both worlds can live, literally add WW2 guns into the game and add some crazy futuristic stuff, keep the games lore and official maps as their are, everything fine, of course the WW2 maps might be more popular, but then, what does Eric seek? to make the vast majority of the players happy? to keep PB2s lore? to just do whatever he thinks is cool? and considering the information i have on him the first option seems most likely

Doom probably moved this out of request, i think hik was involved or something and at the time mostly i would say he might have had some bias

good thing you didnt get to talk with my lostmydollar/jason eden/monovalent/silent phoenix about this, take a look at the AV-235 post and how he appeals to Doom as a gun expert and criticizes the gas-part of an AK-47 in comparation to my gun which has 3 fancy pipe things but then it does not exclude the way it works so wtf?

but about modern guns, guns evolve from past guns, so here is how i see it, really realistic and modern guns from now would be more accurate in the future, of course some crazy stuff can happen and then we get the weird-ass raygun we have, but what about keeping old stuff? you still see older guns in real life, i dont know what year PB2 is set in exactly but i think it could even fit the lore, though if it is 300 years into the future its as unlikely as people using muskets today





tldr: i agree there are a lot of too realistic guns in the game, i just dont see it as a problem, both realistic and unrealistic can exist together just make so pb2 lore uses futursitic stuff n add the generic realistic modern weapons into the level editor
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Incompetence » 24 May 2019, 01:59

Roxxar wrote:i think there's too many "real life guns" or any other sci-fi/futuristic based guns drawn. if even the gun nut addict doomwrath can say that this has little aesthetic similarity to pb2 other than the art-style (i.e. too "modern" by our standards), then i think its fair to say that these "real life guns" just dont fit in.

to be fair, it's easier for artists to draw modern looking weapons, especially those based off already existing guns. the design is already there to use as a template.

modern looking weapons can work if presented in a believable manner. designs can evolve over time after all. but i disagree with doom's statement on this one; we already have guns like the CS-RC in game and that weapon isn't even futuristic looking, just a near resemblance to the actual design it was based off. i prefer updated designs of modern weapons as it better fits the timeframe the game is set in but it should remain as a minority of the overall list of weapons, near exact copies of existing designs even more so.
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Roxxar » 24 May 2019, 02:10

lets try to not turn this into a flame war (not that i see your response as heated nor do i hope you see mine as angry as well), i like this kind of conversation

i was indeed there when lostmydollar/whoever else argued that. i distinctly remember saying that doomwrath shouldnt be a decisive or authoritative figure to control or oversee gun design, especially in a game where guns are stacked high and bulky than sleek and slender (as most guns have been and are in the present day)

i suppose i agree with the sentiment of realistic and modern guns being a basis of guns for the future. not to sound like a gun-nut, but guns like the ksg, p90, g36, etc. are all really odd looking modern guns that i've seen are used as a basis for guns in futuristic movies (dont @ me on this, but p90's are used in The Hunger Games movies despite there being hovercraft/hologram technology)

this is just my personal wish/interjection in art based in pb2. the correction-9, aliens, and android all have the possibility to spawn a wide variety of unique designs that stand out compared to other guns from other games. there's a lot of diverse color schemes and odd shapes that coincide together to make pb2's aesthetic distinctly pb2. i just dont want to oversaturate the level editor with drab, modern shapes and colors like guns such as the needle, crossfire guns, lmg. god forbid we put in even MORE "modern" guns like the AUG, SCAR, KSG, half of incompetence's guns, etc.

i get the feeling that if there's a precedent of "lets just accept every gun, even if it's 'out of theme' " we're gonna start to lose the quality and uniqueness of the games' current and future guns. not that this game is bustling with activity nor is it really foreseeable to even assume so in the future with pb2.5 or pb3, but still. there wouldnt be a submission thread and a voting phase if it didnt matter what kinds of guns should get in, and i think there's some level of discretion artists should have when it comes to submitting art and gauging the level with which they replicated the aesthetic and theme of pb2.

tldr - the addition of these kinds of modern guns, i feel, would set a precedent that ultimately lowers quality in favor of quantity. its my observation that some people just want to jam-pack this game with as much variety as possible while failing to make that variety any more interesting than a single gun (e.g. "wow we dont have a lot of android and cyber grub guns... but look we have these 20 'civil security' guns over here [4 of which are AK-style variants]!").

edit: ok incompetence made a post right before i did, but my post is primarily addressing phsc's post so @incompetence dont take any of this as a response to the one you just made, i may or may not quote/reciprocate to you later
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 24 May 2019, 02:45

Roxxar wrote:lets try to not turn this into a flame war (not that i see your response as heated nor do i hope you see mine as angry as well), i like this kind of conversation

there is no such thing as flamewars just people who dont have arguments so they just throw a bunch of fallacies and that being the classic ad hominem, like...

Roxxar wrote:i was indeed there when lostmydollar/whoever else argued that. i distinctly remember saying that doomwrath shouldnt be a decisive or authoritative figure to control or oversee gun design, especially in a game where guns are stacked high and bulky than sleek and slender (as most guns have been and are in the present day)

this guy when i showed that his points were wrong for map approval and he started calling me a kid, telling me im ignorant, calling me a insect, etc, a complete genius

Roxxar wrote:i suppose i agree with the sentiment of realistic and modern guns being a basis of guns for the future. not to sound like a gun-nut, but guns like the ksg, p90, g36, etc. are all really odd looking modern guns that i've seen are used as a basis for guns in futuristic movies (dont @ me on this, but p90's are used in The Hunger Games movies despite there being hovercraft/hologram technology)

there is actually some reasoning out of this, like lets take tanks, did they change a lot since WW2? a little bit, since the cold war? not really, some still even use tanks from that period, same affects guns pretty well

its a lack of development in pb2s lore, what makes guns evolve is the need for it in lets say a war, but since we dont have much information on pb2s long-term lore it is hard to find out what fits or what doesnt, if we go further into this pb2 could even have different time periods, with different guns, like imagine a really futuristic time period where old guns are destroyed, damaged, rusty, etc, that would be nice, prob not happening, actually, just not going to happen in a general way

but when a new form of technology releases, it takes some time for the basic form to be set, and after a while, everything works out until some genius appears or just a new concept is created, this would be cool if we had more bullet variety and logic behind it, we can have generic bullet guns with realistic designs, and some crazy shit for some weird energy weapons, like just look at the BNG its literally a hand cannon that shoots some weird green thing, thats nice, you can see it is similar to the rocket launcher which is some futuristic cool-sexy thing

Roxxar wrote:the correction-9, aliens, and android all have the possibility to spawn a wide variety of unique designs that stand out compared to other guns from other games.

a thing i was thinking about is that 2.5 is prob going to have custom characters, so having some weird colored guns might be nice, though Eric might allow recoloring guns in it which just makes everything fine, but now we have guns like the AV-135, the needle, etc, kind of a competitor to the CS, i think that is nice, two different realistic weapon manufacturers in the game, i dont think there should be more than that

but the specific factions you mentioned do lack things, but the reason why is pretty obvious, theyre not that popular, if you take campaigns by map makers, how often do you see robot characters? its quite rare, same for grub and etc, correection-9 and aliens do need more guns and they are nice, the best out of PB2 in my opinion, though it is hard to make a good alien gun, what happens is that since it is kind of difficult to be that creative and decent with fanart to make alien guns it ends up being rare, and since robots are not that popular there is some lack of fanart for it

Roxxar wrote:there's a lot of diverse color schemes and odd shapes that coincide together to make pb2's aesthetic distinctly pb2.

i think it should be more oriented towards manufacturer, the aliens having their own look, the correction 9, the grubs, the falkok(you made some for them!), the robots, as well as the civil security, some other human faction that isnt PB1s guards, thus maybe some terrorist organization that can use guns like the needle and the AV-135, etc

but what really seems to lack is unique weapons for lets say, slot 7, 8, 9, the RMK was quite nice, the heater, etc, but people seem not to like creating this and that is what im going to try to create for the feedback post, not more real stuff because there is enought, maybe a rework for the needle or a pistol for the AV faction and that is it

Roxxar wrote:i just dont want to oversaturate the level editor with drab, modern shapes and colors like guns such as the needle, crossfire guns, lmg. god forbid we put in even MORE "modern" guns like the AUG, SCAR, KSG, half of incompetence's guns, etc.

now here i disagree with you, what is the problem with having much? again, there is need for futuristic cool creative weapons, but the demand is actually not there, you need to remember that the vast majority of those who play PB2 are random kids and they seem to like more realistic maps for some reason, the aug and KSG could be added to go with the CS-OICW which isnt much of a used gun, as an example, it fits, NO MORE THAN THAT, i think you didnt realy understand what i was saying and i will explain that repyling to the next part

but now think with me, there is a lack of fanartists in this game, people like Ditzy, Darkstar, are great at creating more futuristic guns, problem is that they made too many for slot 2, since i plan on not creating many realistic weapons, and you dont like them so futuristic ones, i imagine it is possible to achieve a balance betwen values for it all to go well

Roxxar wrote:i get the feeling that if there's a precedent of "lets just accept every gun, even if it's 'out of theme' " we're gonna start to lose the quality and uniqueness of the games' current and future guns.

its not that what im trying to say, check for quality, how good is it? does it fit the aesthetics? just let it in the level editor, actually it would be nice to have equivalent guns, so we have the alien rifle, what CS gun takes it role? none, what about a M14 in PB2? what about another alien pistol becuase the current one is just trash? what about a pistol for the AV faction?

my opinion is just accept literally anything that doesnt suck and might see use, but most do disagree with that, so what i say is that fill in what is needed with realistic stuff and add more futursitic stuff, but if there is lack of realistic stuff in comparison with futuristic stuff, then accept more realistic, etc

Roxxar wrote:not that this game is bustling with activity nor is it really foreseeable to even assume so in the future with pb2.5 or pb3, but still.

yeah, this is why i think realistic guns are a safe bet, people in PB2 seem to like them, maybe the people in 2.5 will

Roxxar wrote:there wouldnt be a submission thread and a voting phase if it didnt matter what kinds of guns should get in, and i think there's some level of discretion artists should have when it comes to submitting art and gauging the level with which they replicated the aesthetic and theme of pb2.

i think the submission thread and voting phase were more so it would not be too saturated, and to filter out complete crap, but if the style of a gun fits in my opinion it would be better than a creative gun that doesnt, or maybe get the high skilled artist to redraw the creative gun or something

i just had a idea that is:
1 - create a forum post for people to submit weapon ideas(prob going to be a bunch of kids)
2 - the few artists in the community draw ideas they think are nice
3 - profit

but realized that all would be requested would probably be some AK-74 and a M16 or something, because of the demand

tldr; so while my personal opinion conflicts with what i think is fair, having a balance betwen realism and futurism is probably the best idea, trying to fill in roles that we lack(alien rifle no CS competitor(the PHANX doesnt do it btw, more of a opening for a new alien gun, maybe some kind of carbine for slot 2, in this case for the CS a M14esque gun, and that other weird gun made by KLM doesnt really fit PB2 in my opinion, also add one for the AV faction which could be like a SKS or something and then deliciously exquisite pizza sauce the needle) and etc for other examples, with the focus on of course factions that lack it(androids, grubs, etc), but also adding new things(pistol for the AV faction which could be reworked since people seem to dislike LMDs guns, into a more futuristic style like i tried to achieve with the AV-235) and also maybe making PB2s lore more well developed with era factors

the biggest problem being the high amount of realistic guns that were added for no reason, like why two slot 1 SMGs that are basically the same? the saturation was caused because of the fanart poll and its value on realistic guns, a lot because of how artists that were more skilled prefered that kind of style



jesus this is a ton of text
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Krutz » 24 May 2019, 02:52

i know that you present this as a spread shotgun, but a slug shotgun would be a new addition to pb2. the problem with guns like the scar and the p90 is that there are already guns in pb2 that would function similarly to those... take the lmg-01m as an example: it was too similar to the minigun c-02m. if the cs-rc, av-135, phantom, c-01r, and phanx already exist, what will a scar bring to the table? it would essentially be a clone of one of the previous automatic weapons and wouldnt be anything new or interesting. thats why i think its kind of silly to be submitting guns whose behaviors are already widely represented in pb2

also i dont know who the idiot is who describes guns' accuracies as just "percentages" (ive seen that on the wiki and its pretty embarrassing) but youre right that its nonsensical and the game describes them in radians

(for reference, the cs-daz's basic accuracy is 20 degrees)
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 24 May 2019, 03:05

the idea with the scar is for it to be a slower firing weapon to take on the alien rifle with high penetration, or maybe that for the AUG

actually i made it as a meme for MLG COOL DOMINIK but the result was pretty good

but the slug shotgun idea is really nice, but then if you read my long-ass post you can see that it might generate a problem which is lack of balance betwen factions which kind of sucks for approved maps(unless Eric allows people to edit values guns have slighty)

also if im going to seriously submit stuff i can just take a look at the games files, i dont remember exactly how accuracy works but i had some modded files that had it changed so i guess ill take a look at it and even add them to pb2, i did that for a gun by Ditzy but it is annoying af to get the sizes right

for the CS DAZ:
Spoiler: Show More
Code: Select all
package
{
   import flash.accessibility.*;
   import flash.display.MovieClip;
   
   public dynamic class gun_real_shotgun extends MovieClip
   {
       
     
      public function gun_real_shotgun()
      {
         super();
         addFrameScript(0,this.frame1,4,this.frame5,12,this.frame13,19,this.frame20);
      }
     
      public function onmade() : void
      {
         this.wep = 3;
         this.zpos = 7;
         this.ready = true;
         this.attachment = 1;
         this.xpos1 = 0.5;
         this.xpos2 = 1;
         this.stat_power = 0.9;
         this.stat_count = 4;
         this.stat_averange = 0.35;
         this.stat_averange_min = 0;
         this.stat_averange_max = 0.2;
         this.stat_averange_add = 0.1;
         this.stat_averange_substract = 0.005;
         this.stat_bullets = 5;
         this.stat_class = 0;
         this.sou = MovieClip(root).s_wea_real_shotgun;
         this.stat_cursor = 1;
         this.len1 = 0;
         this.len2 = 30;
         this.size1 = 7;
         this.size2 = 4;
         this.cost = 1600;
         this.costupg = 300;
         if(!MovieClip(root).MP_mode)
         {
            if(this.upg == 0)
            {
               this.stat_averange = this.stat_averange * 1.1;
               this.stat_power = this.stat_power * 0.7;
               this.stat_count = 3;
            }
            if(this.upg == 1)
            {
               this.stat_averange = this.stat_averange * 1;
               this.stat_power = this.stat_power * 0.8;
            }
            if(this.upg == 2)
            {
               this.stat_averange = this.stat_averange * 0.9;
               this.stat_power = this.stat_power * 0.9;
            }
            if(this.upg == 3)
            {
               this.stat_averange = this.stat_averange * 0.7;
               this.stat_power = this.stat_power * 1;
            }
         }
         this.forcars = false;
         MovieClip(root).create_gun(this);
         this.gotoAndStop(2);
      }
     
      function frame1() : *
      {
      }
     
      function frame5() : *
      {
         this.xpos2 = 0.8;
      }
     
      function frame13() : *
      {
         if(MovieClip(root) != null)
         {
            if(MovieClip(root).currentLabel == "gaming")
            {
               if(this.picken_by == -1 || MovieClip(root).mens[this.picken_by].curwea != this.idd)
               {
                  this.gotoAndPlay(6);
                  this.floatframe = 6;
               }
               else
               {
                  MovieClip(root).PlaySound(MovieClip(root).s_wea_real_shotgun_r,this.x,this.y);
               }
               this.xpos2 = 1;
            }
         }
      }
     
      function frame20() : *
      {
         this.ready = true;
         this.gotoAndStop(2);
      }
   }
}
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Roxxar » 24 May 2019, 09:02

jesus thats a lot of text

im just gonna address the 4 or so parts that i think are relevant to our conversation (specifically, the popularity of unpopular characters/factions/guns, the demand/need for modern-realistic guns over arguably more creative/futuristic guns, the validity and purpose of the submission thread + voting stage, and the safety or rather appeasement of a target audience)

the popularity of unpopular characters/factions/guns: obviously this is highly subjective. i personally agree with you in that they are not popular at all and i wouldnt dare use the cyber grub/falkok/whatevers as my profile picture or chosen avatar or anything. but perhaps there's a sort of dichotomy or duality in the issue in that they're not popular because they have nothing going for them other than a character skin? admittedly the bright orange and yellow of grubs/usurpers dont fit the sleek white/grey/blue/red aesthetic of pretty much everything else in-game and that's an objective observation, but what's to stop them from at least having some background or substance to their already sad existence in-game? even with androids, i know of and have seen plenty of people and maps with androids as their chosen avatar and characters, and their white-red aesthetic are IMO sleek and can very well be refined, but they've got nothing going for them other than like the alien shotgun which technically isnt even their's

the demand/need for modern-realistic guns over arguably more creative/futuristic guns: what i'm interpreting from you is that you want these kinds modern guns in-game because there's no way it will hurt it, NOT that we want literally every single gun in-game. i made the assumption that all guns that hypothetically get in are guns that will generally be well-drawn in terms of style and color scheme. in fact, it should benefit the game because thats what the remaining pb2 fanbase wants because of triple A titles like cod/battlefield that have glorified historical/modern firearms in online multiplayer pvp gameplay
however, what i was saying is that i dont think this game should just conform to that supply and demand because thats just what players "want." not that im sort of economic or psychoanalytic student/genius, but i think demand is driven by supply. of course no one wants cyber grub/falkok/android/usurper weapons because there aren't any to begin with; there's absolutely 0 ground to go off of when it comes to trying to understand how their respective guns would work (except usurpers, i guess; alien shotgun is a very popular gun if anything). when i say that artists should have some sort of discretion and that i dont want to oversaturate the level editor, i mean that the ARTISTS THEMSELVES should stop making these kinds of arts to (attempt to) submit them, not that people should stop asking for them. i guess thats kind of a direct attack to artists that do draw them, but i mean come on there's gotta be something in the back of your mind saying "why are we using modern ballistics to fight aliens with handheld railguns and portable laser beams" or even "why are aliens/robots using our own guns."

the validity and purpose of the submission thread + voting stage: idk why i included this as a primary point. i guess what i want to clarify is that i know it's less about selection and more about filtering. again, i think im making the assumption of "all guns that get submitted will meet the standard of pb2's theme and colors so as to not be entirely out of place if they got in." under that assumption, i think the votes/polls would indeed focus more heavily on popular selection/demand rather than quality filter. this is the kind of vote/poll i want.

the safety or rather appeasement of a target audience: i touched on this in my 2nd paragraph response about the demand/need for modern-realistic guns, but i guess what im trying to say here is that i dont think we should be taking safe or popular decisions solely to get them into the game. in essence, i suppose i AM blaming artists over the community for this; a lot of them in the past have indeed taken favor to drawing realistic guns and while that's probably not their fault, i personally think they shouldnt have submitted them. thats ultimately what my point comes down to, i think: artists need some kind of wariness as to what they should submit, despite it being a really pleasing or popular piece. if artists as a whole ALL took risks and made completely arbitrary designs with unique perks and features that fit the existing factions now, maybe they wouldnt be classified as "risks" and maybe we wouldnt need to have this kind of discrepancy.
also as a bit of a counter: why do we need to compare role-lacking guns to modern ones? alien rifle is automatically associated with M14/SKS? this "av/rebel/terrorist" faction doesnt even exist in terms of character skins in-game, so how did we get to the point of rationalizing their guns' existence without the users themselves (rhetorical question)? there could have easily been some kind of relatively futuristic DMR or battle rifle design completely independent of the label of "m14/sks" or "av/rebel/terrorist" and just civil security. maybe it'll LOOK like a modern gun probably because we're not innovative firearms developers and blueprint designers, but at the very least it wont already have some label of "AV/Rebel M14/SKS" to base it off of. i know im harping on that example a lot and probably for bad reason, but i hope you get the point: if it lacks a role, we could just make a completely new concept/gun rather than compare it to what we already know and see.

tl;dr - 1) maybe unpopularity needs something to make it popular? e.g. alien shotguns are arguably the only "mainstream" alien thing used 2) i know that there's ultimately no harm in putting guns like these in-game as long as they look and function good, but maybe this is a demand that doesnt need to be met? 4) out of order, but this is more sequential to point 2 rather than point 3: artists should have some sort of restraint when it comes to drawing/submitting their content. even if its something popular or highly requested (e.g. modern guns), maybe its not something that should necessarily be in-game? and finally 3) as a general summary and call for change overall, maybe the submission thread + voting thread should be more about popular vote rather than quality filter. popular vote, with unique and new concepts/guns/ideas, would genuinely be popular vote and not "well it's a safe bet and i guess most people including myself would like to see it in pb2 of all the things"

also i like that idea of artists trying to spin new and unique ways on what some fan ideas may be. i myself have tried to draw a couple ideas that were either poorly rendered or had no visuals to begin with, but only ever ideas that i liked and think would fit in to begin with (i.e. i've never tried to (re)draw modern/realistic guns if it sounded/looked that way).

this is way too much text i agree
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 24 May 2019, 18:19

Roxxar wrote:jesus thats a lot of text

its only getting better

going to separate each topic with 5 \n's





Roxxar wrote:the popularity of unpopular characters/factions/guns: obviously this is highly subjective.

i think staff could make a poll or take a look at what is used the most, as in profile character skins, most used guns(prob not possible in current state of the game so maybe a poll) or something so we can actually get data though there are some problems with it i won't mention now cuz it not going to come into reality anyway

Roxxar wrote:i personally agree with you in that they are not popular at all and i wouldnt dare use the cyber grub/falkok/whatevers as my profile picture or chosen avatar or anything.

i've seen that people tend to dislike them, other than for kids who do like that more, i guess the reason might be that people get used to what they like and then go quite close minded, if not even reactionary views such as the ones lostmydollar/jason eden/etc had, but a lot of people are not that open minded towards new guns and ideas too, i think that also is a problem when people want to create really creative guns, the fact that they are different and some might say they won't fit

Roxxar wrote:but perhaps there's a sort of dichotomy or duality in the issue in that they're not popular because they have nothing going for them other than a character skin?

so the problem i see is that, demand
if you see something you think you will like, you probably will try to achieve it, if you see some really nice food you will probably taste it, if you see a interesting object you will go near it to examine it, etc, and this didnt even happen with grubs i think, no fanarts made, falkok had really few back then and now yours, so it still kind of shows my point, of course adding more and showing what can be done with said factions is nice

another factor is that people come into pb2 already liking things, they play battlefield or like halo so they see the CS and think its amazing, so there is already a natural demand for things

Roxxar wrote:admittedly the bright orange and yellow of grubs/usurpers dont fit the sleek white/grey/blue/red aesthetic of pretty much everything else in-game and that's an objective observation, but what's to stop them from at least having some background or substance to their already sad existence in-game?

uuuh i wont get on the color fitting aspect of pb2 cuz this would generate too much text and discussion and actual philosophy stuff

so now here is me assuming some stuff, i think falkoks and grubs will get really, not a lot of attention in 2.5, if you take a look at Eric's tweets, the new guns he has shown, the maps, it just doesnt fit with them, which makes me think Eric also doesnt care much for them, hell grubs took years to be added to pb2, and i don't think there were many requests, considering they had some nice concepts such as the arm cannons from pb1

Roxxar wrote:even with androids, i know of and have seen plenty of people and maps with androids as their chosen avatar and characters, and their white-red aesthetic are IMO sleek and can very well be refined, but they've got nothing going for them other than like the alien shotgun which technically isnt even their's

androids have had fanart made for them, i remember seeing a lot, but it looks like the older ones didnt get submitted to the fanart poll thing, and the newer ones are... just new

i myself took some inspiration from some guns from destiny i think and made some quite generic white guns that were supposed to fit the androids color scheme https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... ZCYDeH.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 5ttgEn.png

Eric submitted them but it was kind of late already cuz i wasnt active at the time and they got ignored, unsure if its quality or something, maybe the style doesnt fit with the androids dynamics? idk

but androids being popular and having no fanart is false, they do have, i did try to find it but prob was in one of these fancy posts with many weapons but if i remember right darkstar made some stuff
also he made a pretty interesting concept for a falkok rifle http://i.imgur.com/vJX7SsL.png but thats quite old

but what youre saying can affect any single faction on the game, like the noir lime is popular, how many guns other than the minigun goes well with him that was made for him and not the CS IGNORE THE AV-esque GUNS I WILL MENTION IT LATER





Roxxar wrote:the demand/need for modern-realistic guns over arguably more creative/futuristic guns: what i'm interpreting from you is that you want these kinds modern guns in-game because there's no way it will hurt it, NOT that we want literally every single gun in-game.

why not be rich instead of being poor? thats my argument, supply over demand is better than demand over supply, dont you agree?

Roxxar wrote:i made the assumption that all guns that hypothetically get in are guns that will generally be well-drawn in terms of style and color scheme. in fact, it should benefit the game because thats what the remaining pb2 fanbase wants because of triple A titles like cod/battlefield that have glorified historical/modern firearms in online multiplayer pvp gameplay

remember what i mentioned earlier, and i will use this in the supply and demand part you mention
but thing is, a lot of high skilled artists only did realistic stuff, that KLM dude, me back then, lots of the really old artists, i will go back with this on the part about the artists being the problem

Roxxar wrote:however, what i was saying is that i dont think this game should just conform to that supply and demand because thats just what players "want."

so now we go back to the problem: WHAT MOVES PB2? what Eric wants, WHAT DOES ERIC WANT?
so considering how he acted over the years, he kind of wants to let all the kids happy, not wanting to add 2.5 to steam or fancy gaming platforms so more poor people can play and also not accepting donations or any kind of monetary stuff on PB2
but he doesnt really talk about what he wants, maybe in private, but considering he had not many problems adding many realistic slot 2 guns from that poll that happened, i think thats Eric's mentality

though there should be a limit to it in this specific case because if we all follow the demand a lot of bad guns will be added considering the small community, if it was bigger and we only picked really good stuff it wouldnt be a problem, macroeconomics vs microeconomics pb2 edition

Roxxar wrote:not that im sort of economic or psychoanalytic student/genius, but i think demand is driven by supply.

ITS A CYCLE
you are born, you experience shit(yo hume my pizza sauce), you then start going like "what if i do X" or "what is Y" and then you see what they are and "i want Y" or "i want to do X" and then you realize there is a limit, so you go like "i want to do 2X and i want 3Y" and then you try to achieve said things i mean i wont go that deeper into this but like human action by ludwig von mises explains this quite well(wont get into a epistemological debate over if economics should be a priori or a posteriori, mostly)

then you achieve some stuff and sometimes you dont want things, sometimes you do, people are different n etc, this affects PB2 a lot because, its not that there is lack of grub stuff to generate grub stuff, its that the people that come into PB2 are used to call of duty or battlefield and then want what they already like because theyre humans, until someone gives them a thing they didnt know they liked, such as a computer at home or a smartphone, we need the Steve Jobs of PB2 to go there and create that stuff, we dont have one though, the problem is still the demand, not the supply, got it?

Roxxar wrote:of course no one wants cyber grub/falkok/android/usurper weapons because there aren't any to begin with; there's absolutely 0 ground to go off of when it comes to trying to understand how their respective guns would work (except usurpers, i guess; alien shotgun is a very popular gun if anything).

i already showed how this is kind of bad, the alien shotgun has a pretty cool design, as well as the alien rifle, that remind people of rifles, now the slot 5 CS rocket launcher is not really popular because its weird looking, not that it is bad or good or beautiful or ugly and not that it is my opinion but it isnt as used as lets say the CS-RC and i think the pre-determined demand that players have when they join PB2 is the reason, and it is quite hard to modify unless we have some really badass people

Roxxar wrote:when i say that artists should have some sort of discretion and that i dont want to oversaturate the level editor, i mean that the ARTISTS THEMSELVES should stop making these kinds of arts to (attempt to) submit them, not that people should stop asking for them.

artists dont always make stuff so they get into the game, remember that, but they probably will still submit, and again, i think that supply over demand is not a problem, it generates no problems as keynes said, this might actually turn into a free market vs regulated market discussion if we continue with the current direction

but here is the thing, Eric can just say "nope dont want this" to things, as well as people also can, if there is a poll again of course

Roxxar wrote:i guess thats kind of a direct attack to artists that do draw them, but i mean come on there's gotta be something in the back of your mind saying "why are we using modern ballistics to fight aliens with handheld railguns and portable laser beams" or even "why are aliens/robots using our own guns."

as much as we dont use flintlock weapons and they would not be effective agaisnt modern military equipment, something from the ww1 if in good quality would probably do it

also theres that talk about pb2 having multiple generations of weaponry n lore n shit n etc that isnt happening and it would be cool af





Roxxar wrote:the validity and purpose of the submission thread + voting stage: idk why i included this as a primary point. i guess what i want to clarify is that i know it's less about selection and more about filtering. again, i think im making the assumption of "all guns that get submitted will meet the standard of pb2's theme and colors so as to not be entirely out of place if they got in." under that assumption, i think the votes/polls would indeed focus more heavily on popular selection/demand rather than quality filter. this is the kind of vote/poll i want.

depends on too many factors, who is going to vote? it tends to be mostly forum people who are older and have differnet views from the generic DARK CLAN member who plays base maps all day, and that dude has a opinion that is valid and he is like the working force of PB2 not us the elite burgueoise so rise up gamers

for real, arent you contradicting yourself?
so here is what youre saying
>all guns are cool-sexy(does the theme thing exclude realistic guns?)
>votes focus on demand over quality
>i like that

demand by the elitistic PB2 forums which is quite different from the demand from the generic ingame player that doesnt last long, that is the problem, and that is why you agree, though these kids will probably take anything tbh

but then, what about the many realistic generic weapons that got in EVEN WITH the quite elitistic forum and twitter people?





Roxxar wrote:the safety or rather appeasement of a target audience: i touched on this in my 2nd paragraph response about the demand/need for modern-realistic guns, but i guess what im trying to say here is that i dont think we should be taking safe or popular decisions solely to get them into the game. in essence, i suppose i AM blaming artists over the community for this;

til we arent? this doesnt exclude new ideas, this just gives in a constant income of decent stuff, creative people exist and they will, as well as the fact Eric himself can add guns to the game, and these being the closest to what fits classic PB2 because it was made by who created it, the master of it

Roxxar wrote:a lot of them in the past have indeed taken favor to drawing realistic guns and while that's probably not their fault, i personally think they shouldnt have submitted them. thats ultimately what my point comes down to, i think: artists need some kind of wariness as to what they should submit, despite it being a really pleasing or popular piece.

why?

so what youve been saying is that, realistic guns come from the lack of supply, ive shown it comes from predetermined demand, then you say we should follow demand by elitistic polls, and now youre saying we... should regulate the elitistic polls? what the deliciously exquisite pizza sauce?

you personally think that, well turns out that we wouldnt really have many guns in the game right now without that and these guns generated possibilities and creative stuff, but the thing i dont understand is, why not have more realistic stuff while still having new futuristic stuff? both dont exclude each other, i think its your mentality that the demand comes from the supply and it does but not PB2's supply

Roxxar wrote:if artists as a whole ALL took risks and made completely arbitrary designs with unique perks and features that fit the existing factions now, maybe they wouldnt be classified as "risks" and maybe we wouldnt need to have this kind of discrepancy.

R I S K T A K I N G B E H A V I O U R
viewtopic.php?f=136&t=22233

for real i tried to make some interesting stuff that is quite different from what we have, some being generic, some not as much, most got ignored tbh
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... IAbWSL.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... X2BQeg.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _proxy.png

im unsure if its quality or that theyre just weird idk, same as the white guns from before, it is still taking risks, because the unique stuff will become the norm and then realistic stuff will be the risks, and now we lack realism and over the time it would generate inflation for futursitic guns, but its not happening because theres no demand for that and these would be ignored

not saying that your guns are bad, but your guns werent as used as lostmydollar's guns because he made supply for a quite big group i will mention later on the AV-esque faction

Roxxar wrote:also as a bit of a counter: why do we need to compare role-lacking guns to modern ones? alien rifle is automatically associated with M14/SKS?

because it is nice to have balance on ranked maps, give alien rifles to the usupartion soldiers on the map and then other side can have different guns with extremely similar stats if not exactly the same that make it balanced and thus we have some decent lore approved maps as well as actual war maps or base maps or whatever

Roxxar wrote:this "av/rebel/terrorist" faction doesnt even exist in terms of character skins in-game, so how did we get to the point of rationalizing their guns' existence without the users themselves (rhetorical question)?

a thing ive seem constantly while playing pb2 is that people always wanted a terrorist faction that is human or supposedly so to go agaisnt the CS, i remember tehswordninja mentiong that the AVs are nice because he was tired of using CS-RC noir limes and the enemies, we just need skins for said faction and its all nice, as well as weapon balance, so instead of only aliens vs CS we can have aliens vs terrorsits or terrorists vs CS and that would make the PB2 lore much more interesting, etc
and the fact that they were popular and people seem to like them as well as noir lime being a extremely popular skin just shows it
again no specific data

Roxxar wrote:there could have easily been some kind of relatively futuristic DMR or battle rifle design completely independent of the label of "m14/sks" or "av/rebel/terrorist" and just civil security.

yeah, give that to the falkok or the robots or some new faction or c9 or whatever, give some fancy realistic gun to the CS and the AV faction and everybody is happy, futuristic fancy stuff, realistic fancy stuff, happiness, wealth, joy, yay!

turns out we dont have supply for fancy technological futuristic guns? ouch! so sad, we have some by like darkstar but theyre still to realistic for what you consider futuristic i guess, most people dont, so maybe the line betwen realism and futurism is the problem? or is it just the general idea of following classical PB2 stuff over newer things that dont really fit in as older stuff did

Roxxar wrote:maybe it'll LOOK like a modern gun probably because we're not innovative firearms developers and blueprint designers, but at the very least it wont already have some label of "AV/Rebel M14/SKS" to base it off of.
i wasnt talking about how it would function, i could imagine a AV rifle, if following my aesthetical idea of red lights for the AV weapons, to fire some badass red laser bullet, as well as that for my AV-235, etc, thats a thing that PB2 lacks, doenst it?

Roxxar wrote:i know im harping on that example a lot and probably for bad reason, but i hope you get the point: if it lacks a role, we could just make a completely new concept/gun rather than compare it to what we already know and see.

we could give it to a faction that needs and fits well with completely new stuff while giving realsitic stuff to realistic factions, maybe specific futuristic stuff for the AV faction such as some fancy ass grenade plasma bng idk launcher thing that i cannot really imagine but oyu get hte idea, or some creative slot 8, the RMK was quite creative with the use of bng bullets but its appearance is kinda boring




i think my reply was pretty good on taking your points, curious as to how youre going to reply




Roxxar wrote:also i like that idea of artists trying to spin new and unique ways on what some fan ideas may be. i myself have tried to draw a couple ideas that were either poorly rendered or had no visuals to begin with, but only ever ideas that i liked and think would fit in to begin with (i.e. i've never tried to (re)draw modern/realistic guns if it sounded/looked that way).

good, most people did and people seem to like it, now go create some fancy android stuff while someone creates a generic fancy realistic gun and it balances out, thats what im trying to say




also were you trying to indirectly mention me during that thing with the fact i made really realistic guns back then though I DID NOT SUBMIT THE EXTREMELY REALISTIC OLD GUNS TO THE POLLS BACK THEN OR NOW(maybe the scar aug and ksg but the ksg is quite modern, the aug is quite unique and different and the scar is generic but it came out of a meme), also when mentioning psychoanalysis or economics which just happen to be fields im quite deep within but even then its no problem ok? like idk if that is actual passive-aggressive behaviour or if im just thinking it is for some reason because a lot of people on the wonderful internet do that and thus i imagine others will!
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Roxxar » 25 May 2019, 00:03

good lord this is getting too long and convoluted than i was expecting to be uhh lets work our way from the bottom up because change is good and thats what i read last

i think it'd be best to clarify exactly what im saying from the getgo because it's obviously very inarticulate and possibly even contradicting itself in various parts:
in a sense, i dont really have a problem with the balance of futuristic vs realistic weapons you're getting at. but i just dont see the futuristic side of that balance being properly met, and i think artists need to take a bit more initiative in order to do so. assuming all guns will be made in pb2's aesthetic and overall style with relatively fair/balanced stats (2 stale words at this point), the amount of guns that get in won't matter so long as the game/Eric puts them in both by demand AND balance. yes this means that if there's 50 real guns and 10 futuristic guns, there should be an equal amount of both getting in rather than a scaled amount of each (i.e. 5 real and 5 future, not 35 real and 7 future).
any and all other details or further clarifications will be mentioned below in reverse chronological order i.e. from the bottom of your post up

1) no i wasnt directly referencing you in that tidbit; i didnt even know those were your choice of study because the most i remember you for is the boz music memes so i somewhat jokingly assumed that was probably your desired career/study choice

2) alien rifle vs. M14-SKS style guns: i know its nice to have balance and sort of counterparts to a role, i was just wondering why our minds immediately go to a realistic gun that exists irl but not in-game instead of just... yknow MAKING one. i thought that was a rather self-explanatory point in that we're comparing an alien single-shot (even though they're all full-auto technically) rifle to an M14 or SKS that's not even in-game. like lets say you wanted a marksman rifle in halo before it came out because halo was somewhat lacking in those kinds of guns other than the covenant carbine. instead of saying something like "wow halo really needs an M1 Garand or a Bushmaster ACR" they could just make the DMR like they did in Halo: Reach.
in essence, this point is completely trivial and the most at an attempt of a bit of beef/trolling because i already know what you're trying to say here and i agree with it. the lack of supply thing you mentioned, i will address a little later

3) risk-taking behaviour: if it means anything, i liked the ideas and originality behind those. i understand the idea of the predetermined demand (which i will, again, address a little later) and i agree with most of what you said here. im okay with my guns not being as commonly used and i somewhat predicted that because 2 of them have arbitrary mechanics, but im proud that i was able to at least expand the "falkok" arsenal a little and throw in a little curveball.
i think this is the kind of diversity i personally most strive for: gameplay diversity. most shotguns are spread far and slow with grenade launchers being big and single-shot, well how about the fast burst shotgun and 3 smaller grenades at once? whatever you get the point. it seems like a LOT of the cs/av weapons are pretty one-trick and it sounds like you and many others want them in primarily for their appearance (because objectively speaking, most of them function similarly as slot 2 weapons, as krutz mentioned) which is okay... but dont leave futurism behind is what i think im trying to get at.

4) ignoring the supply-demand conversation for a little, my take on the voting/submission threads: i hoped i didnt sound that way but obviously i said it poorly. let me make a hypothetical:
- artist A creates 10 realistic guns, but chooses not to submit 4 of them because they look too much like a modern AK/M16. assume they all don't look like an AR-15 decorated by doomwrath
- artist B creates 5 futuristic guns, does not submit 1 because he thinks its a bit overrepresented in-game (e.g. slot 2 guns)
- artist A has 6 guns, artist B has 4 guns. these guns are all good, original, fairly unique, and fairly unseen before
- voters will choose based on what looks best and what is needed most, rather than realize their cod/battlefield dreams in-game (because the cod/battlefield guns wouldnt have been submitted in the first place)
- 3 real guns and 3 futuristic guns get in by popular vote

this is good. let me hypothesize a bad scenario now:

- artist A creates 20 realistic guns, submits 15 of them because the other 5 weren't drawn as well
- artist B creates 5 futuristic guns, submits all of them because he thinks theyre fairly unique ideas
- artist A has 15 guns, artist B has 5 futuristic guns. the real guns look a little too real/modern for the game (i.e. an AK74 or a M249 SAW), and the futuristic guns are fine for the most part
- voters will choose the real guns because they want cod/battlefield style guns in-game and they were submitted so why not; completely neglect the futuristic ones because they want the cod/battlefield style guns
- 10 real guns and 3 futuristic guns get in by "popular" vote

i hope that was a good example but its probably really bad and i anticipate your counter/analysis of that. but what i think im trying to get at with the voting phase is that if it's going to be a popular vote, it should be popular because of what the game needs rather than what the player fanatically wants. obviously thats not possible because players will choose what they want, so this is my call to artists to NOT submit what the player fanatically wants but instead what the game may need. if the voting options are ONLY what the game needs and not guns made out of the predetermined demand (again, i will address this later but im starting to think not much more needs to be said about it), then the popular vote will be good.
this is a really shitty example, but take the 2016 US presidential election for example. technically hillary won the popular vote but trump won the electoral college. if trump wasnt an option to BEGIN WITH, maybe we'd have a better president based on another hypothetical "popular" vote. make the options great again

5) what players want vs what the game/eric needs: i kinda skimmed this part because at this point we're reaching a part of your post that i read first and therefore im sure my and your thoughts about it this far have gone stale and we've had to go back to each others' posts like every 3 minutes to interpret what we're saying. from what i understand, eric is moving slowly but obviously doesnt mind having this quantity of guns put in. that's completely out of our control, as eric is the creator and ultimately its his decision to put them in game or not. of course that means to keep this game alive, he may or may not have to appeal to a larger audience even if that means putting these kinds of guns in, which is why he wouldnt have a problem putting them in maybe. i guess i want to tie this in with the balance of creating futuristic and realistic guns in relatively equal proportions; if there was actually a quantifiable number of futuristic guns being made and submitted, would eric accept them over realistic guns as a thematic issue, or would he simply accept realistic guns because thats what this audience wants and, ultimately, keeps this game alive?

6) and finally, if there's anything worth talking about and to keep these posts worth keeping short, it's the discussion of supply vs. demand. i would dare say we both see relatively eye-to-eye with basically every other point this post addressed except for this one. i almost want to make an entire forum thread/post exclusively addressing this in a much more organized/thought-out fashion than the somewhat-bs wordjumble that i'm doing now. but ultimately, what my point comes down to is excess supply.
i think in the figurative sense, having excess supply (surplus!) and being rich is obviously great. but realistically (not that i would know financially, but lets just keep it to this game), i think it causes an oversaturation and a shift in creativity or balance in the game.

predetermined demand isn't a problem nor is it predictable nor is it manageable. we all come in with our own expectations, hopes, desires, etc. for pretty much everything. that's not the problem at all, i dont think. i think, again, the problem is artists trying to make up for this demand with their excess supply, and it ultimately being submitted and even accepted into the game. we already see the oversaturation of slot 2 weapons, and we're starting to see the oversaturation of modern/realistic weapons (proof: we're having a discussion about it right now).

when artists do only realistic stuff, i think they should have the discernment to not submit them if it's overrepresented or if it's not that original (see: ak/m16 "future variants"). somewhere in your 48109 page essay you addressed that artists dont always make stuff to get it into the game, which i agree with. the problem therein lies with your next sentence stating that they'll still submit it anyway. if an artist apparently makes stuff to not get it into the game, why are they submitting it? they know that one way or another, it wouldn't fit in with the game... yet they do it anyway? my hypothesis is because of the predetermined demand for it, NOT because they want to create a high standard of supply for it.

what im saying is realistic guns come from an excess of supply tied in with predetermined demand (obviously people that draw realistic guns like realistic guns); i didn't say that realistic guns came from lack of supply (clearly there's a hell of a supply for them). in other words, this excess supply of realistic guns comes from predetermined demand (i agree with what you said, literally i think i made one of the first "cod/battlefield fanboys" analogies to figuratively express that im aware of the predetermined demand).
polls arent made by elitist demands, what im saying is that they should be made with elitist supply. in THAT sense, we (as in we the artists) regulate elitist supply (e.g. not having these well-drawn realistic guns because they're realistic, or they look too much like an AK/M16/whatever). this is all under the assumption of an elitist balance between a realistic supply and a futuristic supply.

god this is so convoluted

its kinda like a proletariat/bourgeoisie relationship, where the bourgeoisie are the artists and the proletariat is the rest of the community (from a skill/power perspective, the roles would be flipped; however this is coming from a role perspective). not that im stemming my argument from the communist manifesto to call for an uprising or anything, but we the artists already control the supply/polls. we just need to recognize it and practice it after realizing this standard of balance (most importantly) and quality. i think you agree that there does need to be a sort of balance at least. i think ultimately, the problem stems from how you see the lack of balance as not a problem, and that i do.

i do think the problem is the supply (or at the very least, lack of demand due to lack of creativity). i remember a couple quotes (not to go pro-motivation or innovation or anything) from several different entrepreneurs saying that if they wanted better transportation, they would have bred faster horses instead of making cars. if they wanted better communications, they would have implemented whole keyboards on phones rather than make an adaptive touch-screen.

it's this kind of "innovation" and artist "balance" that i'd like to see. sure we could use healthier and faster horses like in equestrian, but lets not forget the cars that drive us today. sure we could use bigger and more comfortable keyboards like with mechanical keyboards, but lets not forget the touchscreens we have in [most of] our pockets today.

tl;dr - this is really long. i agree with most of what you say, so lets skip most of the semantics/figurative language and get back down to supply vs demand of fanart. i think there's too high of a supply to meet this predetermined demand, and its the artists fault for that. the consequences of this high supply is like an exponential effect, in which (on an extreme scale) we basically turn this into 2D cod/battlefield and forget that the futuristic pb2 exists. we'll all be so pent up with creating csgo's dust 2 or mw2's rust/terminal that we'll forget the stryde-sniper or egrw that makes the game's multiplayer so easily adaptable and likable.
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Roxxar
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 25 May 2019, 02:19

Roxxar wrote:good lord this is getting too long and convoluted than i was expecting to be uhh lets work our way from the bottom up because change is good and thats what i read last

ok

Roxxar wrote:i think it'd be best to clarify exactly what im saying from the getgo because it's obviously very inarticulate and possibly even contradicting itself in various parts:
in a sense, i dont really have a problem with the balance of futuristic vs realistic weapons you're getting at. but i just dont see the futuristic side of that balance being properly met, and i think artists need to take a bit more initiative in order to do so.

just going to mention that there is a definition problem that might become a thing: what is realistic and what is futuristic?
the cp assault rifle and the rmk, where do they fit? the cp assault rifle looks realistic but it has some nice sound that isnt real bullets, does it change what it is or is appearance what matters?
the rmk looks oddly realistic yet shoots deliciously exquisite pizza sauce bng bullets

Roxxar wrote:assuming all guns will be made in pb2's aesthetic and overall style with relatively fair/balanced stats (2 stale words at this point), the amount of guns that get in won't matter so long as the game/Eric puts them in both by demand AND balance. yes this means that if there's 50 real guns and 10 futuristic guns, there should be an equal amount of both getting in rather than a scaled amount of each (i.e. 5 real and 5 future, not 35 real and 7 future).

so what happens is that we had too many artists creating real life guns that were skilled and many creative people who were quite bad, like KLM, or some people with high capacity for creativity having quite generic stuff accepted into the game, such as Darkstar

so here are pb2s guns n how i classify them, ill be excluding the defibrilator and vehicle guns:
realistic: cs-pro, glock? qccv50, cr42 - minigun, cs-rc, cs-oicw, m4a1? lmg, phanx, cp assault rifle? av-135, cr45 - cs-daz - sniper rifle???, needle - rpg (17)
futuristic: c01p, alien pistol, falkok pistol - c01r, ray rifle, alien rifle - c01s, alien shotgun, falkok shotgun - lite railgun, heavy railgun, gauss rifle, alien sniper rifle, falkok rifle, energy rifle - cs-litbro, falkok grenade launcher, generic grenade launcher? - plasmagun, heater, rmk36? - raygun, virus gun (23)

TURNS OUT THERE IS MORE FUTURISTIC STUFF!

what actually happens is that we have the illusion of much real stuff because of how much of it is made and submitted, but like, we dont have any realistic guns for slot 7, 8 and 9, and many many realistic guns for slot 2, with a lack of variety for slot 1(no revolver, that could be an AV faction gun), also with a lack of shotguns(!!! look at what i made !!!), and then there is a ton of slot 4s that are futuristic and not really bound to specific factions

i disagree with you, the problem is the lack of creativity, not futurism or realism, we need good ideas for slot 5, 7, 8 and 9, but how do we make realistic guns for these slots? we kind of dont, slot 9 are weird stuff, slot 8 heavy firing automatic stuff and slot 7 op one shot stuff, i have a idea of a slot 7/8 gun but it still isnt realistic, that is the problem





Roxxar wrote:1) no i wasnt directly referencing you in that tidbit; i didnt even know those were your choice of study because the most i remember you for is the boz music memes so i somewhat jokingly assumed that was probably your desired career/study choice

makes sense, ill go completely out of topic now:
actually i dont study economics or psychoanalysis as in a formal way via university n shit i just buy some books read some articles some lectures n etc
and youre not completely wrong, im doing some fancy machine-learning music generation algorithm that is supposed to be able to generate music following more specific rules than the ones already made and in that i need to use my music theory knowledge so i guess it counts?





Roxxar wrote:2) alien rifle vs. M14-SKS style guns: i know its nice to have balance and sort of counterparts to a role, i was just wondering why our minds immediately go to a realistic gun that exists irl but not in-game instead of just... yknow MAKING one. i thought that was a rather self-explanatory point in that we're comparing an alien single-shot (even though they're all full-auto technically) rifle to an M14 or SKS that's not even in-game. like lets say you wanted a marksman rifle in halo before it came out because halo was somewhat lacking in those kinds of guns other than the covenant carbine. instead of saying something like "wow halo really needs an M1 Garand or a Bushmaster ACR" they could just make the DMR like they did in Halo: Reach.
in essence, this point is completely trivial and the most at an attempt of a bit of beef/trolling because i already know what you're trying to say here and i agree with it. the lack of supply thing you mentioned, i will address a little later

so that would be nice, if almost all of cs guns werent realistic for slot 1, 2 and 3! if we have a desert eagle, a xm8, a generic shotgun (i knew what specific model but forgot), the only creative thing being the sniper rifle which is still generic, why not a m14 to go with the alien rifle, some fast firing gun for slot 2 for aliens like an alien carbine or something, a alien shotgun that acts like our shotgun, a slug shotgun that is quite equivalent to the alien shotgun, etc
of course people can create things out of nowhere but the CS and the AV factions wouldnt really fit that much, i think a rework in most of the AV faction guns would be nice, if they followed a darker color scheme with red lights like my AV-235 does, by the way i modded it into the game https://gyazo.com/59326a87a98d8b26f3c9d045c0784cb5
though i didnt change the bullet into the red one we have but i think a new projectile would be nice i can mod that later
instead of giving the DMR to the CS give it to the robots and make it white or something, etc, or not, but then remember balance is a nice thing to achieve and we should look for more slot specific stuff, by that we kind of end the problem with slot 4 railguns, slot 7 and maybe slot 8 but then the heater exists





Roxxar wrote:3) risk-taking behaviour: if it means anything, i liked the ideas and originality behind those. i understand the idea of the predetermined demand (which i will, again, address a little later) and i agree with most of what you said here. im okay with my guns not being as commonly used and i somewhat predicted that because 2 of them have arbitrary mechanics, but im proud that i was able to at least expand the "falkok" arsenal a little and throw in a little curveball.
i think this is the kind of diversity i personally most strive for: gameplay diversity. most shotguns are spread far and slow with grenade launchers being big and single-shot, well how about the fast burst shotgun and 3 smaller grenades at once? whatever you get the point. it seems like a LOT of the cs/av weapons are pretty one-trick and it sounds like you and many others want them in primarily for their appearance (because objectively speaking, most of them function similarly as slot 2 weapons, as krutz mentioned) which is okay... but dont leave futurism behind is what i think im trying to get at.

it is important too, a lot of pb2 is done with its lore and it spossibility, custom maps will end up being really important, terrorist vs counter terrorist maps with the AV faction would be nice, as well as PB2s lore, etc
Krutz mentioned the slug shotgun idea, it could be competition with the alien shotgun if it has a similar rate of fire(maybe slighty slower) but with one bullet that does more damage(its a slug!)
and i mean there isnt much need for creativty for slot 2s or 1s, i did submit that railgun pistol and i had a idea for a slot 2 too, but it would probably end in slot 8 or 9 or whatever, and unsure if you realized but i submitted more futuristic guns than real ones, at least i think i did





Roxxar wrote:4) ignoring the supply-demand conversation for a little

communism now works! socialism also does! hey USSR no need to look at what you need to build or produce in external prices!
i really wanted to make some joke with mises or hayek but nobody would understand it

Roxxar wrote:my take on the voting/submission threads: i hoped i didnt sound that way but obviously i said it poorly. let me make a hypothetical:
- artist A creates 10 realistic guns, but chooses not to submit 4 of them because they look too much like a modern AK/M16. assume they all don't look like an AR-15 decorated by doomwrath
- artist B creates 5 futuristic guns, does not submit 1 because he thinks its a bit overrepresented in-game (e.g. slot 2 guns)
- artist A has 6 guns, artist B has 4 guns. these guns are all good, original, fairly unique, and fairly unseen before
- voters will choose based on what looks best and what is needed most, rather than realize their cod/battlefield dreams in-game (because the cod/battlefield guns wouldnt have been submitted in the first place)
- 3 real guns and 3 futuristic guns get in by popular vote

this is good. let me hypothesize a bad scenario now:

so here is the thing, it isnt considering slots and factions, that is the big deal im trying to say
if the realistic guns are all taking over things we dont have for realistic factions, cool-sexy
if theyre all slot 2s, its not so cool-sexy
same for futuristic guns, are they all slot 4 railguns?

Roxxar wrote:- artist A creates 20 realistic guns, submits 15 of them because the other 5 weren't drawn as well
- artist B creates 5 futuristic guns, submits all of them because he thinks theyre fairly unique ideas
- artist A has 15 guns, artist B has 5 futuristic guns. the real guns look a little too real/modern for the game (i.e. an AK74 or a M249 SAW), and the futuristic guns are fine for the most part
- voters will choose the real guns because they want cod/battlefield style guns in-game and they were submitted so why not; completely neglect the futuristic ones because they want the cod/battlefield style guns
- 10 real guns and 3 futuristic guns get in by "popular" vote

a decently adapted m249 SAW could work for a CS slot 8 gun! then someone makes a fancy slot 8 gun for aliens that has a similar role to the RMK and its all fine!

now the 3 futuristic guns are slot 1, 2 and 3! amazing!
and the realistic guns are a pistol for the AV faction, my AV-235, some kind of small assault rifle for slot 2 to go with the AV-235 but CS edition, some M14, a slower firing slug shotgun, a CS equivalent of the needle, a CS equivalent of a missile launcher(maybe like one that follows oyur mouse or fancy stuff like that), a generic revolver, a marksman rifle to go with the falkok rifle and a realistic grenade launcher!
would that be that bad? really? here is the opposite case

-artist B creates 15 futuristic guns
-artist A has 10 realistic guns
-people choose a bunch of slot 4 futuristic guns, and a bunch of slot 2 realistic guns

that is an actual bad scenario!



Roxxar wrote:i hope that was a good example but its probably really bad and i anticipate your counter/analysis of that. but what i think im trying to get at with the voting phase is that if it's going to be a popular vote, it should be popular because of what the game needs rather than what the player fanatically wants. obviously thats not possible because players will choose what they want, so this is my call to artists to NOT submit what the player fanatically wants but instead what the game may need. if the voting options are ONLY what the game needs and not guns made out of the predetermined demand (again, i will address this later but im starting to think not much more needs to be said about it), then the popular vote will be good.

now we get into a quite complex topic, what does the game need, what its players need, or what makes it balanced? actually its what Eric thinks it needs, and i am agaisnt the poll, it should exist and Eric should handpick what he thinks is cool from it

but even then it wont, people tend to still get a personal preference, lets say you like the alien weapons, you will prefer more alien weapons over CS weapons because you like aliens! same for the CS and the reason why it happens is predetermined bias, but that bias can also be created while in PB2, and there is like the futuristic gun for slot 4 problem too, there is a bias and A LOT of people created generic railguns

but what i see you doing is trying to go to completely not real scenarios to try to achieve what is better, but it turns out that what happens in reality is never going to be this, the thing i said about communism applies here, supply and demand exists, and even then, if we add a balance betwen realistic and futuristic guns, what if people still end up using the realistic guns much more? did it change anything? just the total poll of guns that is lower

Roxxar wrote:this is a really shitty example, but take the 2016 US presidential election for example. technically hillary won the popular vote but trump won the electoral college. if trump wasnt an option to BEGIN WITH, maybe we'd have a better president based on another hypothetical "popular" vote. make the options great again

lets ignore all the problems of democracy and what would actually happen in real life

this is also affected by the idealized case i mentioned earlier, but even in this, people could still build up bias for what is the least worst, a good example i know about is classical music, actually baroque, people had bias for what german organ school they were closer to, for no reason at all, both didnt exclude each other and they all had their specific creative atributes, then composers that merged both like JS Bach kinda were ignored, the north organ school could be alien guns and the south organ school could be robot guns, people could prefer alien guns for any reason at all, the simple fact something is more popular already affects how people judge their views, then if someone made a mix betwen the two, it would be considered quite terrible, but what if it is its own thing?
a good method of fixing all problems is allowing new factions into the game, something that is both futuristic and realistic, so we can just dump stuff in there, do some color changes or whatever

also public opinion if being the only method kind of sucks, its a big problem of democracy, what happens is that, once youre in, you can start deliciously exquisite pizza sauce things up, last time the poll didnt have like animations or bullets, what if the person just stops caring and puts it into Eric? what happens is that it will lower its quality and maybe be less unique too, as well as the fact once someone has a gun into the game, that person will become famous and people will be more likely to vote for guns of said person, literally it just creates inequality
(in real life things such as keynesianism that seem to go well with the lack of long-term oriented action caused by democracy and things such as inflation and cantillon effect kind of deliciously exquisite pizza sauce it up)
jesus i cant ignore its problem deliciously exquisite pizza sauce

Roxxar wrote:5) what players want vs what the game/eric needs: i kinda skimmed this part because at this point we're reaching a part of your post that i read first and therefore im sure my and your thoughts about it this far have gone stale and we've had to go back to each others' posts like every 3 minutes to interpret what we're saying.

a important thing we are not considering is that the demand can change in the future since it is affected by the offer

Roxxar wrote:from what i understand, eric is moving slowly but obviously doesnt mind having this quantity of guns put in. that's completely out of our control, as eric is the creator and ultimately its his decision to put them in game or not. of course that means to keep this game alive, he may or may not have to appeal to a larger audience even if that means putting these kinds of guns in, which is why he wouldnt have a problem putting them in maybe. i guess i want to tie this in with the balance of creating futuristic and realistic guns in relatively equal proportions; if there was actually a quantifiable number of futuristic guns being made and submitted, would eric accept them over realistic guns as a thematic issue, or would he simply accept realistic guns because thats what this audience wants and, ultimately, keeps this game alive?

someone has to ask Eric about that, also the fact that, i think if we all go with Erics ideas it will be better, like if Eric says "we need futuristic guns" we make futuristic guns, if he says "we need realistic guns" we make them, but he doesnt, so i guess the only way is asking, but maybe he likes the way it was made, the simple supply and demand doing its job and creating saturated slots and factions, who knows





Roxxar wrote:6) and finally, if there's anything worth talking about and to keep these posts worth keeping short, it's the discussion of supply vs. demand. i would dare say we both see relatively eye-to-eye with basically every other point this post addressed except for this one. i almost want to make an entire forum thread/post exclusively addressing this in a much more organized/thought-out fashion than the somewhat-bs wordjumble that i'm doing now. but ultimately, what my point comes down to is excess supply.

keynes would be proud

Roxxar wrote:i think in the figurative sense, having excess supply (surplus!) and being rich is obviously great. but realistically (not that i would know financially, but lets just keep it to this game), i think it causes an oversaturation and a shift in creativity or balance in the game.

i have too much tea im getting tired of tea let me get some coffee
oh wait is that a thing called balance? oh, not many people were talking about how realism is a problem in PB2 before the excess of supply happened, and it shifts the demand into... balance! because if a poll happens now, there will be older players that will accept stuff and newer players that accept stuff, older players will be like "too many slot 2s" so they vote lower on them, while new players will probably like them, i dont see a problem in having 50 slot 2 guns BUT most people do so in a poll system they could just vote but i think Eric choosing what he wants is just better for this kind of stuff, i dont think he would allow that to happen

if there is too much white stuff people will start being pressured by it and like counterculture movemetns form out of that, when there was too much generic classical music Beethoven went there and BOOM ROMANTISM, when romantism was too big, BOOM, impressionism, n etc

that also affects modern music, too much generic pop music? mumble rap, lo-fi and other mainstream forms

thats what tends to happen with supply and demand!

Roxxar wrote:predetermined demand isn't a problem nor is it predictable nor is it manageable. we all come in with our own expectations, hopes, desires, etc. for pretty much everything. that's not the problem at all, i dont think. i think, again, the problem is artists trying to make up for this demand with their excess supply, and it ultimately being submitted and even accepted into the game. we already see the oversaturation of slot 2 weapons, and we're starting to see the oversaturation of modern/realistic weapons (proof: we're having a discussion about it right now).

it is a problem, mostly on lower-duration players as i like to call them, a player that spends 2 months playing and leaves, he is the one that wont care about having too many slot 2s, also the ones that dont do map making, the thing about htis in real life is that there are just different products, there is excessive stuff for the masses and higher quality stuff for the elite, it balances it out, this doensnt happen in PB2 and wont

but now there is a lack of realistic artists, or artists as a whole, if you take a look into what ive made in a quite long time from now its mostly futuristic, Incompetence is more realistic-futuristic merge that is more on the realistic side but he doesnt do it for 2.5 reasons it seems like and he did create futuristic fanart that fits into the lore!

and again, this doesnt show the problem of having too much money, it isnt like inflation happens, some guns will be forgotten, some already are, the cr-45 is quite not used, people will realize there is no need for slot 2s and stop creating slot 2s unless they dont do it for 2.5 so we can just not accept his guns or Eric can put the ban hammer on it

I PERSONALLY DONT THINK EXCESS IS A PROBLEM SO THIS IS QUITE HARD FOR ME TO TAKE

i think you got it for this part


Roxxar wrote:when artists do only realistic stuff, i think they should have the discernment to not submit them if it's overrepresented or if it's not that original (see: ak/m16 "future variants"). somewhere in your 48109 page essay you addressed that artists dont always make stuff to get it into the game, which i agree with. the problem therein lies with your next sentence stating that they'll still submit it anyway. if an artist apparently makes stuff to not get it into the game, why are they submitting it? they know that one way or another, it wouldn't fit in with the game... yet they do it anyway? my hypothesis is because of the predetermined demand for it, NOT because they want to create a high standard of supply for it.

just dont accept them, or Eric doesnt, if you truly dont want something tell all of BoZ members to vote low on it or whatever, or create something better

also it can just be ignored! whoever creates the poll can be like "oh this is too generic deliciously exquisite pizza sauce this"

in real life supply and demand fixes this by having a higher number of people consuming so some might like the same kind of gun over and over agian and some may like what is creative, but those who dont adapt prob go banrkupt of whatever, there is no such thing in PB2, maybe if someone submits too many weapons that are too similar or generic or close to what has been made, ignore them? (i personally am agaisnt this)

so your hypothesis makes no sense, there is demand for realistic guns, dude submits it, prob just for the sake of it, its better to submit something than nothing and have no chances, even if it gets accepted it can end up just being ignored in the game and hell maybe even removed, i am also agaisnt that but im trying to take the closest i can to your point of view

Roxxar wrote:what im saying is realistic guns come from an excess of supply tied in with predetermined demand (obviously people that draw realistic guns like realistic guns); i didn't say that realistic guns came from lack of supply (clearly there's a hell of a supply for them). in other words, this excess supply of realistic guns comes from predetermined demand (i agree with what you said, literally i think i made one of the first "cod/battlefield fanboys" analogies to figuratively express that im aware of the predetermined demand).

this doesnt make futuristic guns get ignored at the first place, but if something is different from the bunch it tends to be considered special(because it is) and receive better ratings, but what youre not considering is that what happened last time isnt happening again, many artists such as Darkstar prob wont make more slot 2 or slot 1 automatic weapons, and some like Ditzy might try to be more creative though its quite rare for it to come out of him

but let me explain a concept, i will call guns that are actively used by the community active guns, and guns that are ignored as... ignored guns!

the cr-45 is quite a ignored gun, the cs-rc is quite a active gun

there are 4 AK-47s in the game now! they all get accepted(not that likely, people would prob rate the best out of them, if they werent to close, and then Eric can just pick what he thinks is the best), but LETS SAY ALL 4 GUNS GET ACCEPTED, there will be active or inactive guns, if its all balanced, then what is the problem with having 4 AK-74s? its like having 4 different brands of the same product that has no difference, it just makes so people realize tehre is less need for it, they wont accept more, and it will bring the different stuff to light as i mentioned before

its like having bitcoin, etherium, nano and dash, if one sucks for some reason it will go away, if theyre all accepted because of balance, there should be a minimal difference, 1 vote or 2 votes, the best of the best gets accepted

also in the poll case i will ignore how easily it can be abused

Roxxar wrote:polls arent made by elitist demands, what im saying is that they should be made with elitist supply. in THAT sense, we (as in we the artists) regulate elitist supply (e.g. not having these well-drawn realistic guns because they're realistic, or they look too much like an AK/M16/whatever). this is all under the assumption of an elitist balance between a realistic supply and a futuristic supply.

the polls are elitistic because the generic DARK CLAN member doesnt know about it, they already are made with elitist supply, the bad guns simply dont get in and theyre not made by the elite

but i disagree with the elitism of yours a lot, its like "i think X is good so everybody must think it also is", why is your opinion of balance better than the opinion of a DARK CLAN member? both could be able to exist together, thats what i am proposing, Eric can take out what doesnt fit, or maybe even the poll does it, as you said, the predetermined demand is not a problem, and this kind of mentality is what kills games, people want potatos and the USSR gives them rice, people are unhappy, they are less effective

in this case the kids want generic guns, they dont get them, they leave, they cannot evolve into the elite, its like minimum wage killing opportunities(wont go deep into it)

a thing that you are ignoring and you shouldnt is practice, lets say its all like you proposed by the polls, again, they might not get used, why have 10 realistic guns and 10 futuristic guns if only the realistic will be used? in practice it will always be supply and demand, and you cannot assume it at all, maybe someone wants to create a literal USSR map on PB2 and then boom no AK-47 or AK-74 etc, this is what kills opportunity too, the more supply, more variables for the population to generate new ideas too

Roxxar wrote:its kinda like a proletariat/bourgeoisie relationship, where the bourgeoisie are the artists and the proletariat is the rest of the community (from a skill/power perspective, the roles would be flipped; however this is coming from a role perspective). not that im stemming my argument from the communist manifesto to call for an uprising or anything, but we the artists already control the supply/polls. we just need to recognize it and practice it after realizing this standard of balance (most importantly) and quality. i think you agree that there does need to be a sort of balance at least. i think ultimately, the problem stems from how you see the lack of balance as not a problem, and that i do.

most of it wasnt written on the communist manifesto yet das kapital

i am agaisnt this elitistic view, so let me explain you what deliciously exquisite pizza sauce up economics

ELITISM, here is a cool example of what generates economical crisis in real life:
1 - people want X and Y for the same thing, depending on their class(you as the one that wants futuristic guns, while the COD kid wants realistic guns) a good example in real life is effectiveness of public medical system or social security
2 - government doesnt like Y, they go in and create X
3 - it generates a problem which is that people dont get what they want, in PB2s case they leave, in real life, they just stop giving a deliciously exquisite pizza sauce, they go illegal, they are unhappy which makes them less effective, etc

a better example are drugs
1 - PEOPLE WANT DRUGS, some dont
2 - the ones that dont elect a fancy candidate via democracy instead of free market to set some arbitrary rules
3 - people who want drugs get no drugs
4 - traffic, war, violence!
5 - the fancy candidate creates a method of solving that which is sending police forces to kill them and die
6 - "works"

it generates more conflict than solves it, people who want drugs can do their own thing and those who dont can also do their own thing

actually since this is literally economics right now, unsure if you read, but a few interesting books on said topics, by different authors:
marx: das kapital(the 3 volumes are good)
keynes(seems to be the closest to what you defend): the general theory of employment interest and money
rothbard: man, economy and state
bawerk: capital and interest
milton friedman(he has a lot of nice stuff): milton friedman a theory of the consumption function

not that many modern authors because thinks like the MMT makes no sense


so what happens here is that you ahve an elitist opinion which you want to impose over others, i want to let people do their own thing, youre excluding others, i am not

its the same thing that jason eden did actually, but he wanted the game to be extremely realistic

AND BOTH CAN GO ALONG IF NOBODY IMPOSES THEIR PREFERENCES OVER OTHERS
not like you cant walk around saying "i like X and Y sucks" but the way youre doing it is trying to solve YOUR problems becuase its not a problem in the general way

balance can be achieved, and it will if the MAJORITY LIKES THINGS, it will be a failure if that doesnt happen

also if there are no artists making futuristic guns that means the demand is low, its like "we don't have bakers because nobody wants bread" its the same thing, someone will be like "YO I REALLY LIKE BREAD LET ME MAKE THAT" and if others like that, all fine

your guns did get into the game, the majority prefered the realistic stuff, they got in, now the opinions have changed, people prefer the more futuristic ones, let that be, in the future it will balance out again, think long term not short term

if you think it could generate a crisis like 1929 it wasnt caused by excessive demand that is the keynesian version of it, mises is a economsit that was alive at the time and he predicted the crisis, keynes did not
(read the causes of economic crisis and other essays by him)

Roxxar wrote:i do think the problem is the supply (or at the very least, lack of demand due to lack of creativity). i remember a couple quotes (not to go pro-motivation or innovation or anything) from several different entrepreneurs saying that if they wanted better transportation, they would have bred faster horses instead of making cars. if they wanted better communications, they would have implemented whole keyboards on phones rather than make an adaptive touch-screen.

SOMEONE JUST HAS TO HAVE A GOOD IDEA, and it happens, ford had a good idea, zuckerberg, steve jobs, bill gates, we need smart people, the more demand for something that doesnt exist the most likely someone will try to solve said problems with creativity!

again both dont exclude each other, people need to think long term, and the fact that everybody uses X makes so those who focus on Y will be much better when Y achieves a level near of X, this is happening with solar panels and electric cars, mostly coming from private initiative, while well, take a look at the USSR and how centralized stuff dealt with innovation... they actually failed a lot and copied a lot, though nazis did a good job and they were centralized

the real better transportation is the one adapted for what the specific market wants, you wont transport things from america to europe with a car, that is why boats exist, now if you want to transport delicate stuff, go on a more fancy boat that is secure, you want some ore countainers? well, there are big boats for that

that could happen in PB2, the balance thing i was talking about earlier can actually even be ignored if you think about it, if there is no equivalent of a alien rifle, people wont use alien rifles versus CS stuff, so it either becomes symetrical maps that are not a problem imo, or someone creates it if they really want to, problem is that in PB2 we cannot just create and submit things, its not a constant process, fixing that fixes everything

Roxxar wrote:it's this kind of "innovation" and artist "balance" that i'd like to see. sure we could use healthier and faster horses like in equestrian, but lets not forget the cars that drive us today. sure we could use bigger and more comfortable keyboards like with mechanical keyboards, but lets not forget the touchscreens we have in [most of] our pockets today.

i like how you assume that a more free-market view keeps the same things, what happens is that, once ford realizes he can sell his own cars to his workers instead of the elite, it all goes fine, and that is what happened

AGAIN IT DOES NOT EXCLUDE CREATIVITY OR FUTURISTIC WEAPONRY IF REALISTIC GENERIC ONES EXIST

Roxxar wrote:tl;dr - this is really long. i agree with most of what you say, so lets skip most of the semantics/figurative language and get back down to supply vs demand of fanart. i think there's too high of a supply to meet this predetermined demand, and its the artists fault for that. the consequences of this high supply is like an exponential effect, in which (on an extreme scale) we basically turn this into 2D cod/battlefield and forget that the futuristic pb2 exists. we'll all be so pent up with creating csgo's dust 2 or mw2's rust/terminal that we'll forget the stryde-sniper or egrw that makes the game's multiplayer so easily adaptable and likable.


it will still be there, if people forget about it, then there is no need of it

WE ALL SHOULD GO BACK TO PLAYING WARCRAFT 3 BECAUSE I LIKE IT! MOBAS ARE ALL BAD!


for real read the economics books i suggested, this is literally the debate over regulated or free market, im not the biggest genius of economics but im pretty sure the people i mentioned are, also no adam smith because what he says is too obvious and keep in mind if you actually read that stuff that marx uses adam smith's objective price theory as his base, same does keynes but for different things

ALSO THE ONLY THEORY THAT CONSTANTLY IS ABLE TO GUESS WHEN CRISIS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN(period, not exact dates cuz that is impossible) ARE AUSTIRANS AND THEYRE BETTER THAN CHICAGO BOYS BECAUSE THE GOLD-DOLAR PROBLEM THEY HAD WITH THE END OF BRETTON-WOODS!
youre prob not going to read all of that










this is actually getting big
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phsc
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby phsc » 25 May 2019, 02:39

i think it would be better if you created a specific topic to talk about this, also if you want i can give you PDFs for most of these books i mentioned
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Re: Bullpup Shotgun CS-KZG

Postby Roxxar » 25 May 2019, 07:36

ok yeah i probably will this is getting ridiculous

i'll pass on the pdf's
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