Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

General Discussion related to the Plazma Burst game series.

Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Roxxar » 25 May 2019, 10:26

basically this topic exponentially got out of hand with essays longer than i submit to my college humanities, history, and philosophy classes put together

i think to simply summarize while still retaining as much important stuff as possible, the conversation that phsc and i have been having is one about the supply and demand of various gun/skin/whatever fanarts and what that means for the community and future of this game as a whole

to summarize my thoughts in as simple and holistic of a manner as possible, i believe the crux of my 3 essays in that thread are this:

1) there are too many real-life guns/art drawn in comparison to the amount of futuristic content that we should probabaly be seeing (and by we i really mean just me, but i desperately hope im not alone in this mindset)
2) this excess supply of modern-gun fanart is not detrimental to the game in its current state, but perhaps in the future this will set a precedent for what will happen in terms of fanart submissions/acceptances. e.g. people will continue to submit modern/realistic guns and no futuristic guns solely because that's what works/worked.
3) artists themselves need to recognize this (to an extent) in order for 1 and 2 to not happen. they should also have some discretion with what they submit and try to distinguish if this is what they want to see, or if this what the game would like to have.
- 3a) for example, in my completely independent opinion, i think people should stop posting "realistic" guns based on our current standard of modern guns, such as the AK/AR15/M16 style rifles; this goes for all modern firearms such as the SCAR, AUG, VHS, Vintorez, Barrett M82, etc. don't be a smartass when it comes to gun models and names, i'm pretty sure you get my point.
- 3a i.) i know guns like the CS-RC looks like the XM8 and the CS-Pro/DAZ is basically just a generic pistol/shotgun etc., but you get the fkin point (less outright decoys and maybe a bit more originality)

i really dont want to continue the conversation not because it's bad or because i or phsc conceded/admitted "defeat," but because its very long and i'd rather not begin a thread as a direct response to someone else in another thread.

what is the rest of your guys' opinions on this?

@phsc: if ur reading this and expected another essay, im sorry to inform you that i dont want to keep typing essays as a response. just know in my rough draft analysis and outline that i eventually gave up on out of an ironic nihilistic reflection, i concede many of your points but ultimately i stand by my assertion that artists should stop trying to feel this sort of pressure to submit and get accepted, even if it meant submitting lower quality or generic art/ideas. i hope this doesnt come off as an imposing authoritative demand but rather a plea and idyllic hope for current and aspiring artists.
i also personally believe there should be more "futuristic" guns solely because there are more "futuristic" factions, but that comes down to subjective popularity and whether or not there is a demand for that. i personally will always attempt to create a supply for it (as i've created falkok, usurper, grub, AND android weapons now) and will ask pretty much single-mindedly ask for those, but i mean thats just gonna be me. even if they aren't used or popular, having them would at least be nice, y'know?
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Incompetence » 25 May 2019, 22:01

i'll just re-quote my own post so i don't have to write it again:

Incompetence wrote:modern looking weapons can work if presented in a believable manner. designs can evolve over time after all. but i disagree with doom's statement on this one; we already have guns like the CS-RC in game and that weapon isn't even futuristic looking, just a near resemblance to the actual design it was based off. i prefer updated designs of modern weapons as it better fits the timeframe the game is set in but it should remain as a minority of the overall list of weapons, near exact copies of existing designs even more so.


not that i completely disagree with you though, i personally think too many "modern" weapons takes away the futuristic identity this game is trying to establish which is why i feel they should never be the majority of this game's available arsenal. obviously i'm one of those artists that makes these modern weapons (though i don't just make those kinds of weapons only) but i do keep the game's setting in mind whenever i make something for it so i try to make something that can at least be considered believable. i'm not a fan of the generic CS-RC, CS-DAZ, etc (which i think was just there to establish the CS's modernized aesthetic) nor am I a fan of things like the AV-135/Needle because they aren't really presented in a believable way. CS-RC, the shotgun, and pistol especially are simply lazy when it comes to having a unique design. art made like the Needle or AV-135 come off to me as being made just because things like the CS-RC are in-game which i believe is a cause of these modern weapons being made. weapons like the Needle making it in only makes the problem worse because it's a precedent and the inclusion of weapons like it means modern weapons are acceptable and therefore fair game. it also makes the "rendition of a modern weapon" argument that doom used in phsc's topic make zero sense

also the only thing i really like about weapons like the CS-RC is that they're unique in presence. they stand out because they don't look like they fit in. adding more modern looking weapons takes that away from those weapons in my opinion and it eliminates that identity entirely when modern weapons overshadow the futuristic weapons. it's another reason why i don't simply outright replicate weapon designs 1:1, besides it being more lazy than adding a futuristic twist to it.

fan art inclusion isn't technically made canon either, is it? the game does have weird anachronistic stuff like WW2 maps and those seem to be accepted pretty well. maybe these modern weapons can exist in a similar state of suspension of disbelief, separate from the overall canon. not saying this as a justification to start filling the game with these modern weapons but just suggesting an idea as to how their inclusion could "fit" into the game without changing the established world. still think modern weapons should be a minority in the weapon list.
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Roxxar » 25 May 2019, 23:10

Incompetence wrote:i'm not a fan of the generic CS-RC, CS-DAZ, etc (which i think was just there to establish the CS's modernized aesthetic) nor am I a fan of things like the AV-135/Needle because they aren't really presented in a believable way. CS-RC, the shotgun, and pistol especially are simply lazy when it comes to having a unique design. art made like the Needle or AV-135 come off to me as being made just because things like the CS-RC are in-game which i believe is a cause of these modern weapons being made. weapons like the Needle making it in only makes the problem worse because it's a precedent and the inclusion of weapons like it means modern weapons are acceptable and therefore fair game.

yes, this is exactly what im talking about! they're not inherently BAD, but i think these are the things that, subconsciously, matter the most. in accordance to what i was talking to phsc about, we already have this pre-determined demand for modern guns because cod/battlefield; if there's a precedent of those weapons getting in (i.e. a pre-determined supply for them), who's to say that won't just become the norm? (1st submission thread had SEVERAL futuristic guns, while 2nd one has less so)

while on an individual basis that wouldn't be bad, on a much wider, general scale, a norm like that isn't fitting for plazma burst 2!

Incompetence wrote:fan art inclusion isn't technically made canon either, is it? the game does have weird anachronistic stuff like WW2 maps and those seem to be accepted pretty well. maybe these modern weapons can exist in a similar state of suspension of disbelief, separate from the overall canon. not saying this as a justification to start filling the game with these modern weapons but just suggesting an idea as to how their inclusion could "fit" into the game without changing the established world. still think modern weapons should be a minority in the weapon list.

i think that's up for a bit of debate. me personally, i think if it's a part of the campaign, it's technically "canon." i mean, we really can't say what's legit and what's just a level editor "opportunity" unless eric himself implemented it into the story. we can create all the head-canon/lore we want, but ultimately i dont think that should be a defining factor or reason to get guns in-game.
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Incompetence » 26 May 2019, 00:26

Roxxar wrote:in accordance to what i was talking to phsc about, we already have this pre-determined demand for modern guns because cod/battlefield; if there's a precedent of those weapons getting in (i.e. a pre-determined supply for them), who's to say that won't just become the norm? (1st submission thread had SEVERAL futuristic guns, while 2nd one has less so)

i don't really think CoD or battlefield is the main reason for that demand. both those games now have pretty much kept their distance from modernism. modern weapons are pretty simple and easy to make, so an artist can easily create a plentiful supply of modern weapons. they just have a high availability in comparison to futuristic weapons and so they end up being a majority of the options available when it comes to selecting which art makes in the game.

i think seeing stuff like the M4A1, glock, and the CS weapons in-game are what created this demand. just their existence as working weapons was enough to get people to wonder, "hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had AK-47s?" then you have things like real warfare maps and all that which likely increased that demand even more.

Roxxar wrote:i think that's up for a bit of debate. me personally, i think if it's a part of the campaign, it's technically "canon." i mean, we really can't say what's legit and what's just a level editor "opportunity" unless eric himself implemented it into the story. we can create all the head-canon/lore we want, but ultimately i dont think that should be a defining factor or reason to get guns in-game.

well, none of the fan art added so far has appeared in campaign which technically wouldn't make it canon, hence why i brought it up. if it was added into the story/campaign then yeah, it'd be a different situation since that would indeed make it canon.

people aren't very good at making lore reasons for fan art anyways so it being a defining factor shouldn't be too much of a problem. of course, that's only because the game's lore and story is pretty limited and there's a lot of blank space to fill.
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Roxxar » 26 May 2019, 02:08

sorry the cod/battlefield is mainly a figurative example and a recurring exaggeration that phsc and i discussed, but u get the point

idk, i bring up the lore reason/rationale because it seems like thats how a lot of these AV/rebel guns got in. obviously i dont have specific statistics or a quantifiable amount of requests, but as phsc said prior:
phsc wrote:a thing ive seem constantly while playing pb2 is that people always wanted a terrorist faction that is human or supposedly so to go agaisnt the CS... that would make the PB2 lore much more interesting, etc
and the fact that they were popular and people seem to like them as well as noir lime being a extremely popular skin just shows it
again no specific data

i personally dont see this kind of request, but maybe thats just because i dont browse the forums/chat as often as others may. either way, this is just my way to say "why are there av/rebel guns without even an av/rebel skin"

(note: a counter-example to that is darkstar's civil protector skin AND his civil protector guns. i can at least respect that. but where is this terrorist/av lore? this is a rhetorical question moreso to spark interest in artists to go beyond futuristic guns and maybe create some characters instead rather than to initiate discussion about it. im aware that character skins are harder to make and that we all like our ak47's, but u know me: nonsensical romanticism)

(note 2.0: hint hint i didnt ask for that full body template a couple days ago for no reason)
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Incompetence » 26 May 2019, 03:17

Roxxar wrote:i personally dont see this kind of request, but maybe thats just because i dont browse the forums/chat as often as others may. either way, this is just my way to say "why are there av/rebel guns without even an av/rebel skin"

yeah i don't understand where the whole "AV/rebel" thing came from either but i get your point of having weapons that belong to a faction but not having that faction itself in.

on another note: i too was looking for the full body template so fortunately, i can at least make complementary skins to the weapons i didn't associate an existing faction to
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby phsc » 26 May 2019, 04:42

Roxxar wrote:1) there are too many real-life guns/art drawn in comparison to the amount of futuristic content that we should probabaly be seeing (and by we i really mean just me, but i desperately hope im not alone in this mindset)

no

so here are pb2s guns n how i classify them, ill be excluding the defibrilator and vehicle guns:
realistic: cs-pro, glock? qccv50, cr42 - minigun, cs-rc, cs-oicw, m4a1? lmg, phanx, cp assault rifle? av-135, cr45 - cs-daz - sniper rifle???, needle - rpg (17)
futuristic: c01p, alien pistol, falkok pistol - c01r, ray rifle, alien rifle - c01s, alien shotgun, falkok shotgun - lite railgun, heavy railgun, gauss rifle, alien sniper rifle, falkok rifle, energy rifle - cs-litbro, falkok grenade launcher, generic grenade launcher? - plasmagun, heater, rmk36? - raygun, virus gun (23)

you didnt read what i wrote last time, it is not
slots have many guns that fit criteria, slot 2h as too many realistic guns while slot 4 has too many futuristic guns, other than the faction unbalance

i dont think the problem is realism or futurism yet lack of balance betwen faction guns and even inside them, as well as the same concept for slots


Roxxar wrote:2) this excess supply of modern-gun fanart is not detrimental to the game in its current state, but perhaps in the future this will set a precedent for what will happen in terms of fanart submissions/acceptances. e.g. people will continue to submit modern/realistic guns and no futuristic guns solely because that's what works/worked.

why

i dislike something so it must be bad for everyone, etc

let people submit, if polls accept it its the popular vote, or just let Eric and his opinion rule over his game

but ok, lets say we dont allow more realistic guns, what will happen?
1 - newer artists will think its harder to get into PB2, a good way to get good at scales, line size and shape is tracing or similar activities, and it is not good or bad, it doesnt matter actually, also some go in as kids so they dont really care or understand
2 - people will stop making guns! lets say i like classical music, oh classical music is banned, i can listen to it illegaly(that would be like creating fanart for urself, only for the fan art section, etc), but then, in total we lose more artists on the long term

ARTIST A LIKES REALISTIC GUNS BUT HE HAS SOME BADASS IDEA ON A FUTURISTIC GUNS AND MAKES IT!
it gets into the game! yay!
artist A made a ton of realistic guns too but if he didnt make them he wouldnt achieve at the futuristic gun
people and their creativity arent always like others creativity

Roxxar wrote:3) artists themselves need to recognize this (to an extent) in order for 1 and 2 to not happen. they should also have some discretion with what they submit and try to distinguish if this is what they want to see, or if this what the game would like to have.

its what you want to see not what the game would like to have

so what is the game, Eric, the community or what you think is balanced?

its Eric but Eric seems to like popular opinion so i guess just let it be, hes not accepting 5 AK-47s



Roxxar wrote:- 3a) for example, in my completely independent opinion, i think people should stop posting "realistic" guns based on our current standard of modern guns, such as the AK/AR15/M16 style rifles; this goes for all modern firearms such as the SCAR, AUG, VHS, Vintorez, Barrett M82, etc. don't be a smartass when it comes to gun models and names, i'm pretty sure you get my point.

ok but what scar model theres the H the L what model of AUG oh wait haha im going to still be a smartass



Roxxar wrote:- 3a i.) i know guns like the CS-RC looks like the XM8 and the CS-Pro/DAZ is basically just a generic pistol/shotgun etc., but you get the fkin point (less outright decoys and maybe a bit more originality)

yes lets make guns based on c9 guns and not CS guns ONLY


Roxxar wrote:i really dont want to continue the conversation not because it's bad or because i or phsc conceded/admitted "defeat," but because its very long and i'd rather not begin a thread as a direct response to someone else in another thread.

ok so i was playing a DOTA tournament and it was a bo3, it was 2-2 and on the final game a team didnt play, the team that didnt play didnt lose amrite


Roxxar wrote:@phsc: if ur reading this and expected another essay, im sorry to inform you that i dont want to keep typing essays as a response. just know in my rough draft analysis and outline that i eventually gave up on out of an ironic nihilistic reflection, i concede many of your points but ultimately i stand by my assertion that artists should stop trying to feel this sort of pressure to submit and get accepted, even if it meant submitting lower quality or generic art/ideas. i hope this doesnt come off as an imposing authoritative demand but rather a plea and idyllic hope for current and aspiring artists.

because you dont have arguments other than you personal preference

Roxxar wrote:i also personally believe there should be more "futuristic" guns solely because there are more "futuristic" factions, but that comes down to subjective popularity and whether or not there is a demand for that. i personally will always attempt to create a supply for it (as i've created falkok, usurper, grub, AND android weapons now) and will ask pretty much single-mindedly ask for those, but i mean thats just gonna be me. even if they aren't used or popular, having them would at least be nice, y'know?

what factions does PB2 have?

CS, falkok, grub, alien, C9, android, in theory the humans from PB1, unsure about any other factions

and then we have a bunch of new possible factions with the new gun update

CS is the only realistic one, ok
now do you agree with me that, this is unbalanced and gives too much focus on futuristic guns? it creates demadn for more realsitic factions ebcause people like that, and that is what happened we have the AV possible faction n shit, your argument assumes that people shouldnt create factions and unique styles, yet we should keep the origianl futuristic look of the game, its like reactionary views of PB2 but the inverse of jason eden, amazing

but i love your argument
even if they aren't used or popular, having them would at least be nice, y'know?

ok so why not add a bunch of realistic guns to the game, even if they aren't used or popular, having them would at least be nice, y'know
(though they probably would)



i dont care i wont quote your fancy stuff




over what incompetence first said, i disagree again

the fact that these real life guns are generic are your opinion guys, a lot of people think that pb2s futuristic guns are like, i dont know the word, ridiculous? not like the railguns but like the c01r or the cs rocket launcher

what happens is that if we keep following the style with futuristic guns it will also get boring

and again you guys "seek balance" but you dont realize that its a slot and faction issue not a total sum game


but
Incompetence wrote:fan art inclusion isn't technically made canon either, is it?

what defines canon? i mean CS guns are added, are htey canon? the faction is, why couldnt the AV be?
if its what is in original PB2 Eric can just add a bunch of guns to the campaign and other factions and that would be really cool, but we dont know if he will, having this preset mentality using only the current information will make so we dont have guns for new possible factions and thus less actual innovation and that might make 2.5 be kind of bad for these new factions

also on adding guns and letting them be in the level editor, that is the best method possible, i even had a idea that you could upload guns or add them via modding that works for others in 2.5, we will have a skin editor so why not also have that? so we can have an MP40 for a WW2 map and also have some alien weapon for an alien battle map





on what Roxxar said after, you guys literally are having reactionary views on PB2 lmao, predetermined demand makes you guys react agaisnt it wanting futuristic guns, just funny not bad or good, interesting at the very least to see how we can see political ideas affect flash games, not saying that you guys are that irl

but again i disagree, why does the norm need to exist at all and why cant it be dynamic based on what most people want, why does it need to be what some forum elitist people want, why not something more objective like value balance for slots factions and others while also accepting new factions? no we must have android and grub guns!
or why not just add all of it and maybe even start removing guns, you guys are creating supply for no demand with guns that wont be used, thats what im saying

also on the fact that the 1st poll had more futuristic weapons than the 2nd, the time variable is too different, people have no been able to create new guns as well as some people ahve no submitted yet, also the lack of a higher number of artists affects that a lot too

over campaign i mentiond that before





its not the m4a1 or glock or CS guns that create demand, its because people want them to make maps, people will create things based on what they see and what they want, a lot of PB2s map style on multiple is realistic, realistic guns, not so much futuristic and when futuristic it tends to come from a more realistic futuristic style too

i think we need futuristic guns that arent ridiculous

but thing is, the demand will still be there ffs, we already have the CS weapons, and removing them will keep the demand too, if not make it higher, its like trying to control employment rate by doing useless stuff, it doesnt chagne the fact its useless and that these people are actually just building up a economical crisis

A wants X, A gets Y, Y might do it if it is much better than X but if it isnt capable of solving what X is made for, people will still want X!

see the problem, over the lack of lore for guns, its the fact that we dont already have much lore for guns, the fact that most people dont care about lore, and the fact that it might very well get completely ignored as well as stats for same guns could




over the terrorist faction, there is a lot of stuff in correlation with that, first we have the counter terrorist and the terrorsit factions in game, a lot of maps that use said resources eg hostage maps, but i think its both of you not being active on the lets say discord

i did small research, a lot of maps correlated with the topic and most importantly, SP maps or series, appeared, but here are some messages i found, i find it interesting because they tend to be from the same people and some i have quite a lot of past conflict with
https://prnt.sc/ntegpd https://prnt.sc/ntehfk https://prnt.sc/ntehpq he mentions this like 3 times https://prnt.sc/ntei05

i also remember having people in DARK CLAN request that, and lets be real, that is the actual public of PB2

even then there is a general lack of requests for guns to be made, i didnt find many people wanting futuristic guns at all

its pretty simple, you have the predetermined demadn that you like X, you see that there is a thing similar to X in a situation and something different, you go towards what youre used to, thats how humans do stuff, or at least most of them




actually may i recommend ya to read keynes, only him, and then people like hayek and mises refuting him, cuz ya have a similar mentality which is actually normal taht is what we learn about economics on school and i could go on and on about why that happens n etc but nobody cares, the demand always comes before the supply, and its not internal supply that sets the demand, scientists didnt create the nuclear bomb because there was supply for bombs, yet because they needed to create something that kills in mass more effectively than bombs, chemical weapons came out of it and they were great yeah, both can coexist, then biological weapons that can also coexist with nuclear bombs and chemical weapons, each for their specific use
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Roxxar » 26 May 2019, 05:56

edit: idk why i cant delete this post but whatever just pretend this is a relic of the past
Last edited by Roxxar on 26 May 2019, 08:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Roxxar » 26 May 2019, 07:20

oh jeez we're really getting into the essays again

i tried very hard to say that these are my personal interjections and not "arguments" but rather a conversation, and i love the amount of sarcasm and wit you're starting to put into these posts. that's a sarcastic statement in and of itself, but still i think its ironic that coming from someone who had such an enlightened view of flamewars and argumentative debates (which i didnt say it was nor had an intention to do so! i said moreso that its a conversation several times)

some key points i WILL address though:

1) yes, i do think there should be more futuristic guns! without the fanart factions, thats a ratio of 1:5 ratio of realistic to futuristic (cs:everything else). it's a game about the future! of course i want more futuristic guns. in my scrapped draft response, i even mentioned this point. slot disparity will happen for the same reason there is factional fanart disparity; you're saying you want to control slots over factions, but isnt that the same essence of controlling what artists want to submit?

2) can you please stop trying to throw around straw mans of assuming my implicit "arguments" of "roxxar hates ABC therefore XYZ he knows best." i cant tell if they're hyperbolic or literal; either way, i think its an oversimplification of what i am trying to say. i want this to be an emphasis on artists' discretion and submissions, with my subjective lens and insight as to what that means. nowhere have i claimed that i am trying to be authoritative or superior about this; its all in the form of a plea/request yet you somehow twist it into some roxxar-based fantasy?

3) the ideas are what matter! not the fact that they wont be used/popular. admittedly im gonna get up on a high horse for this, but i do think the idea of my cyber grub/android/usurper (this doesnt have to be my art alone; it could be anyone's assuming they make it!) weapons is better than the idea of a "futuristic rebel AR15/AKM/Uzi" ! see point 5 for further clarification

4) there's a norm because if there wasn't a norm, this would be gmod! this is not gmod. there's a theme and story to the campaign and i dont think its fair to say that we can and should allow whatever we want just because there's a level editor that's fairly intuitive and genius in terms of advanced custom gameplay that the community can control. if you (rhetorically speaking; i am not physically speaking to you, the reader [i.e. phsc], in this figurative comparison) really want to make a WW2 map that's accurate down to the rubble created when a german apartment building was accidentally demolished due to a 2cm Flak 30/Flakvierling 38, i do truly believe that you have a skewed image of what the game is like, and you have an incorrect target audience in mind!
if you want to create a ww2 SIMILAR map with single-shot rifles and the occasional machine gun crew between two opposing foreign parties in a ruined urban battlefield, then boy does the level editor have what you need!

5) the removal of guns is something that this game should not support! in fact that sounds exactly like the opposite of what you, phsc, want when it comes to chancing your art to get into the game. first people have chance their odds that their submission is popular enough, THEN they have to chance their odds that their submission will STAY popular enough?
im glad you also made a hasty generalization of saying these "futuristic" guns will not be used because ding ding ding thats a fallacy. how does anyone know that. here's a thought: you said no one uses the CS-OICW therefore does this mean other realistic guns akin to it will not be used?
popularity does not determine whether or not a gun should be submitted (SUBMITTED, not "accepted" please dont go on a tangent about "didnt you just say popular vote something something elitist polls"), thematics (and i suppose slot disparity, which i said several times i agree with) should

6) ANOTHER straw man that you, phsc, dont apply to yourself for some reason! YOU think some futuristic guns look ridiculous, therefore all possible futuristic guns will look ridiculous? thats a subjective opinion i distinctly tried to avoid yet you pinned on me, now im gonna pin it on you because you explicitly said it. who's to say they'll look ridiculous? from my personal experience, i've been submitting moderately sized and shaped guns nowhere near the size of, lets say, the heavy railgun or pre-war gauss gun that got in -- so much so that the falkok guns have been labeled as toys in comparison to the other guns it was submitted alongside with. sure a couple futuristic submissions in the 1st thread were arguably ridiculous, but im not gonna say that myself because thats my opinion that may or may not be shared with a minority of the community!

?.?) i have no clue what DARK CLAN actually is, so im gonna ignore that sentiment

7) again, i have no problem with this demand for realistic stuff! i have a problem with the precedent it holds!
- let's have a terrorist faction! ok great
- lets have some terrorist skins! fantastic, could always use new skins
- how about some weapons for them to use! awesome, there's already a few for them
- and some decorations! sure, the game could always use some different decorations and designs
- now lets have some counter-terrorists with the same concepts as above! okay, i suppose that only fits
- they should have different guns than the terrorists! i guess that would make sense...
- ooh what if the terrorists hired mercenaries to help them fight the CTs like in Strike Force Heroes 3! uhh...

well you get the point i dont need to derail that example any further. nowhere when you argue for this terrorist stuff do you argue for the futuristic stuff alongside it! this makes me believe that you dont REALLY care for this balance, but rather the opportunity and freedom of expression in the level editor to create neo-historic maps and scenarios that will make gun and history nuts go crazy. WHICH ISNT BAD, but it seems in all of your examples you're forgetting the balance and the theme upon which the game was founded!

and again, this isnt a conversation about futurism vs realism, it's about balance and discretion. idgaf if there are realistic guns and factions in-game, but because i think this is a futuristic-themed game, it should have more futuristic-themed stuff!

finally, no i dont want to read those authors and economists. i ultimately dont care enough about what happens with the submissions/acceptances to attempt to argue through an educated economical and sociological perspective. again, this is all in the lens of an observant, hopeless romantic (and by romantic i mean romanticism, not affection); i have no expectation of changing minds really, but i had hoped that maybe this could spark some thought about it!

tl;dr - i think the fundamental basis with which i am discussing this is as follows:
i think pb2 to be a futuristic game, therefore i think there should be more futuristic stuff regardless of the potetial of the level editor/custom maps. if you fundamentally disagree with that statement, well idk what else to tell you and i'd dare say there's nothing more to discuss. we can agree to disagree here and move on.
if you DO agree, here's my schtick: artists should think to themselves: hey, am i submitting too much realistic stuff? is there enough realistic stuff submitted that mine isn't distinctly unique in comparison to? what futurism does this realism balance out?
are these questions so unfair for people to ask themselves before they submit something? or does the glory of having their stuff physically in-game astronomically outweigh the metaphysical questions and consequences of not doing so?
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Krutz » 26 May 2019, 08:31

when i see a weapon that obviously resembles something in real life "submitted" to be possibly added to the game, i just kinda roll my eyes... i dont give a sht if it gets into the game really, i think the more guns added, the better (i suppose), but id rather see stuff that arent just copies of real guns

but then theres also the issue of functionality redundancy... think the little bastard and the ghost—theyre almost exactly the same weapons. thats where i would kinda give a sht if the art gets into the game, because its effectively already in the game

as another example, the LMG-01m is, im pretty sure, just a better minigun c-02m... a moderate fire rate and power automatic gun with volatile accuracy

so if someone draws an ak, and submits it, its like: where do we put this gun in the game? what does it do, in a new fashion? considering the breadth of pb2's ballistic mechanics, pretty much nothing, itll just be another av-135 or cs-rc

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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Incompetence » 26 May 2019, 10:02

phsc wrote:the fact that these real life guns are generic are your opinion guys, a lot of people think that pb2s futuristic guns are like, i dont know the word, ridiculous? not like the railguns but like the c01r or the cs rocket launcher

what happens is that if we keep following the style with futuristic guns it will also get boring

and again you guys "seek balance" but you dont realize that its a slot and faction issue not a total sum game

i only find the CS weapons like the CS-RC, etc to be full on generic because they're literally just copies of the things they're based off of. things like the KSG you made or the VHS-2 variant I made aren't exactly "generic" in terms of the style to me but not entirely unique either. i also don't mind if real life weapons do get added in the game because there's nothing wrong with them. i even make those types of weapons myself; i simply just don't want the amount of real life weapons added to outnumber the amount of futuristic/non-real life weapons in the game. i'm not particularly of the opinion that we should focus more on X type of gun over Y; i'm more of a "why not both" person in this discussion. real life guns are unique enough in this game because they're a small percentage of weapons available in the game and it gives those weapons a unique identity and place in this game, which is a good thing imo.

but you say that real life guns being generic is our opinion but then you follow this up with your own opinion that continuing to follow the futuristic style will get boring. i'd contend that futuristic designs, regardless of how ridiculous they may look, would be more interesting because they would be designs that haven't been seen before in a completely recognizable form. seeing an AK clone in this game along with other real life guns will get boring quicker because everyone has seen them already before frequently. how would seeing something like an AR-15 or an AK in this game be less boring than continuing to create something that isn't a weapon that already exists?

i hold the belief that in a somewhat far future game like PB2, "real life" weapons should be fairly uncommon and not a massive part of that game's arsenal unless there's a really good and believable explanation as to why that's the case. destiny 1 and 2 for example incorporate weapons based off real guns just fine: they are a very small percent of the entire weapons list and don't constitute a large portion of it for no reason and especially not for the sake of some weird pre-established demand, even after their inclusion, and they are explained as being relics from the past, a believable explanation for the setting. PB2 in my opinion would do good to do something like this if it ever decided to include more weapons while keeping the in-game universe in mind. the game can add 70 real life guns in and i wouldn't have a problem, but don't make it 70% of the in-game arsenal. don't forget that there's also a game in the series before PB2 that features an entirely futuristic arsenal so it's clear the game is attempting to go to a futuristic design direction. to go from seeing futuristic color tracer shooting guns in FTTP to AK/AR-15 clones in PB2 in-universe/world would be quite jarring. switching back and forth between futuristic and real life guns would just make the game lose sight of what exactly it wants to be because of these clashing styles trying to exist in the forefront.

phsc wrote:what defines canon? i mean CS guns are added, are htey canon? the faction is, why couldnt the AV be?

this question was literally the reason i was asking if fan art technically exists in canon, because there is no way to determine if anything added actually does exist now in the story or not. i mean, you can have lore friendly things like say, a CS skin, but have it be non-canon after all.

as for the AV/terrorist thing, the only thing really giving that faction idea a foundation inside the actual game is the terrorists and counter-terrorists teams in the level editor but again, it leads to the problem of those being considered canon or not because there's no criteria on what establishes something as part of the actual story.

on another note, having a gun belonging to a new faction that we haven't seen in-game but having no user affiliated with said faction is weird because without that character, who is the gun for then and who's going to use it? yeah, having terrorist guns is cool and an interesting angle to have in the game but where are the terrorists? this just leads to issues where a random faction can be created via a created weapon or armor set with no other complementary assets but that faction is just empty and simply a name, lacking a proper identity and presence no different than if said faction never existed, because there is no other material to get that from. PB2's lore is nearly a blank canvas anyways; just about anyone can create a faction or race (see: raven, reakhosha, etc) but those factions themselves aren't really anything. with the CS for example, you at least can see their design language and aesthetic and see what their whole idea is supposed to be. how is anyone supposed to really make anything fitting for something like the reakhosha or even terrorists when there's no proper design language or aesthetic established? if terrorists use whatever weapons they can find, something has to exist that shows that. if they don't, that instead has to be signified then. the AV-135 and Needle can't do that alone so now there's weapons for a faction that literally no one knows what the faction even is. you can only infer so much out of one or two assets for an entirely new faction but it won't give an entirely clear picture on that faction alone.
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby tehswordninja » 26 May 2019, 17:34

I'm one of the folks who's always wanted a Rebel faction, or at least some non-CS human guns besides Correction Nine. The fanart update gave us that, although we sadly didn't get a rebel skin or two.

I think these guns are fine so long as they show themselves as an evolution of a real-life modern (but much older in the PB2 universe) design. For example, I don't have an issue with a generic AK so long as it can show that it's not a copy of an AKM, but rather what an AK or another similar (I say this since we have an AV-135, not an AK-135) family type of rifle may look like in a couple hundred of years from now. I think the AV-135 does this ok, but it could use some work on its proportions and such.
I certainly don't care much for straight-up copies of existing real-life weapons but I'll give the CS weapons a pass since they won't be going from the game any time soon and they don't stick out too badly in my eyes. I wouldn't have an issue with the designs being updated to be a bit more futuristic looking but that's beside the point.

I will agree that I would love for fan artists to create more of the niche weapons; android, Falkok, Alien, C9, but I also wouldn't have issues with fan artists adding to what the fan art update brought; more Crossfire weapons, maybe a Crossfire trooper skin, a few rebel skins to match the RPG/AV-135/Needle, maybe another PHANX weapon or even a skin, etc.

I do think that fan artists should be taking a look at the current guns in the game before they make their work. I feel like people just make guns with no consideration for where they would fit in the sandbox.. or if they're even needed in it. It'd be a lot better if people did what I just said and look for existing niches, both old and new, and tried to create skins and weapons that would flesh them out some more.
who needs a PB2.5 release date, anyways?
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby phsc » 26 May 2019, 18:15

Roxxar wrote:i tried very hard to say that these are my personal interjections and not "arguments" but rather a conversation, and i love the amount of sarcasm and wit you're starting to put into these posts. that's a sarcastic statement in and of itself, but still i think its ironic that coming from someone who had such an enlightened view of flamewars and argumentative debates (which i didnt say it was nor had an intention to do so! i said moreso that its a conversation several times)

sarcasm and irony dont make things bad or good, like we have serious authors that made use of that a lot in the past, good example is Voltaire, if you read some of his stuff it has what 18th century sarcasm and irony were like, you can also see some authors like indirectly making fun out of others, Kant doing that with Descartes, Schopenhauer doing that with Hegel, etc, it imo and prob in their opinions too just makes things more interesting

also there are no such thing as flamewars, only those who abuse fallacies or cannot deal with arguments so they try to make chaos and attack people because theyre dumb and biased




Roxxar wrote:1) yes, i do think there should be more futuristic guns! without the fanart factions, thats a ratio of 1:5 ratio of realistic to futuristic (cs:everything else). it's a game about the future! of course i want more futuristic guns. in my scrapped draft response, i even mentioned this point. slot disparity will happen for the same reason there is factional fanart disparity; you're saying you want to control slots over factions, but isnt that the same essence of controlling what artists want to submit?

first of all there is a big difference submitting and accepting, i dont want any control other than quality but i find extremely unlikely for that to happen so lets use something that is better than futuristic or realistic as a whole, apply that concept to faction and slots
i mean that AK-47 that dude submitted, it wont get accepted, if it does Eric who deliciously exquisite pizza sauce owns the game can just say a no, it doesnt have much of an artstyle that fits, and there are better guns for said functions that have been submitted (my AV-235)

everybody could just submit a bunch of slot 2s, Eric could be like "i dont need 35 AK-47s let me accept a few only or one of these", etc




Roxxar wrote:2) can you please stop trying to throw around straw mans of assuming my implicit "arguments" of "roxxar hates ABC therefore XYZ he knows best." i cant tell if they're hyperbolic or literal; either way, i think its an oversimplification of what i am trying to say. i want this to be an emphasis on artists' discretion and submissions, with my subjective lens and insight as to what that means. nowhere have i claimed that i am trying to be authoritative or superior about this; its all in the form of a plea/request yet you somehow twist it into some roxxar-based fantasy?

just focus on accepting and not submitting, simple as that, we wont and cant stop artists from creating realistic art and we also shouldnt because its useless, also its your opinion when you talk about PB2 needing futuristic guns because some people want realistic guns, just because a thing is a thing it does not mean that said thing needs more of that specific thing, its an opinion, some might want diversity, some dont, let the majority vote and make Eric our own true god accept stuff, even then the way the poll was done didnt consdier the generic DARK CLAN member who has a valid opinion though probably less developed or rational but that doesnt make it invalid




Roxxar wrote:3) the ideas are what matter! not the fact that they wont be used/popular. admittedly im gonna get up on a high horse for this, but i do think the idea of my cyber grub/android/usurper (this doesnt have to be my art alone; it could be anyone's assuming they make it!) weapons is better than the idea of a "futuristic rebel AR15/AKM/Uzi" ! see point 5 for further clarification

i disagree, your pistol is almost an exact copy of the c01, also not really, why create something that will see no use and why remove something that will to add said thing? and again why not both?




Roxxar wrote:4) there's a norm because if there wasn't a norm, this would be gmod! this is not gmod. there's a theme and story to the campaign and i dont think its fair to say that we can and should allow whatever we want just because there's a level editor that's fairly intuitive and genius in terms of advanced custom gameplay that the community can control. if you (rhetorically speaking; i am not physically speaking to you, the reader [i.e. phsc], in this figurative comparison) really want to make a WW2 map that's accurate down to the rubble created when a german apartment building was accidentally demolished due to a 2cm Flak 30/Flakvierling 38, i do truly believe that you have a skewed image of what the game is like, and you have an incorrect target audience in mind!
if you want to create a ww2 SIMILAR map with single-shot rifles and the occasional machine gun crew between two opposing foreign parties in a ruined urban battlefield, then boy does the level editor have what you need!

yes this is a futuristic game, it does not mean it needs to be a futuristic game forever, and it does not exclude the fact that new things that are not futuristic can be added, and i dont see a problem with this being like GMOD because, here is the amazing part, we can keep the campaign and all of that futuristic cool-sexy n all nice, but what happens is that in multiplayer what many times is more popular is something that goes against the topic of the game, so why not give said people a product to work with? it does not mean accepting 35 AK-47s or direct real life copies, instead of something like what that dude submitted, what about my AV-235? thats what im trying to say



Roxxar wrote:5) the removal of guns is something that this game should not support! in fact that sounds exactly like the opposite of what you, phsc, want when it comes to chancing your art to get into the game. first people have chance their odds that their submission is popular enough, THEN they have to chance their odds that their submission will STAY popular enough?

why not? things evolve, some stop being used or being considered good by others

this is quite deeper than this, should PB2 follow its lore and only and thus lose popularity, or should we adapt so more people come in, or it adapts with the time or need of its players?

this is just one of the methods of dealing with that, and if Eric thinks a gun really belongs into the game, he could just... not remove it! because its his game so he can do whatever he wants, right? he just chooses to do what people want

Roxxar wrote:im glad you also made a hasty generalization of saying these "futuristic" guns will not be used because ding ding ding thats a fallacy. how does anyone know that. here's a thought: you said no one uses the CS-OICW therefore does this mean other realistic guns akin to it will not be used?

how do people in the market know that a thing is used? they see it now and assume how it will be, is it an absolute truth? no, i know that

what happens is that if you go in right now and check all maps being played you will probably see most guns being realistic than futuristic, maybe not in approved maps because of how people tend to stay within the topic but custom almost for sure, the CS-OICW is a more specific case because of how its DPS is quite different from other guns and how it plays differently, as it is a burst rifle, with a separate color scheme, if we add more into said themes it might get popular, and you can make an argument that grubs could become more popular if they had grub weapons that is probably true, probably because i cannot predict the future, if we had actual data things would be easier to deal with, but this for reaistic guns is a thing i remember quite well from the past, and by past i mean before the new gun update, the CS weapons were in a general way more used that the futuristic ones mostly in custom maps, like bases, people put CS guns and not alien guns, sometimes they do but its rare, approved and unranked maps tend to be more into PB2s lore though then we have like jason eden and his maps...

Roxxar wrote:popularity does not determine whether or not a gun should be submitted (SUBMITTED, not "accepted" please dont go on a tangent about "didnt you just say popular vote something something elitist polls"), thematics (and i suppose slot disparity, which i said several times i agree with) should

what does? your opinion that we should keep the 2:7 ratio? thats your opinion, what if i want that ratio to be 7:2? popularity is the best method of solving things, that is why capitalism tends to work better than other systems in real life, because of the market, in this case it is more like democracy because you cannot like spend 5000 in a gun you like when the average is 1000, everybody would have the same amount of money in this system because there is none and only a vote, we are also assuming that Eric and staff will use a poll again, maybe they just will handpick stuff or whatever
and again there is the problem that a lot of people from PB2 didnt get to know about the poll or didnt vote etc etc etc, mostly those who really play the game such as DARK CLAN members i will explain this later


so here is how i view it, anything should be submitted, its like opening a company, you can open it and sell literally shit, maybe people who like scat will buy it, but unless said people really value your system they could pay much to keep you going, does this happen with PB2? we dont have data on what is used and what is not and Eric should add that kind of thing probably, submissions seem to attract a bunch of weird things (like that pumpkin man) that really dont fit, let him send that, if we had a upvote button in the forums(old suggestion) it would make it easier to see what fits and what doesnt for these newer artists, but back into the capitalism example, maybe people would like to have the pumpkin man into the game, turns out that probably not many would (i dont think you disagree with this generalization), and now we get into a problem of what youre saying:

artists shouldnt submit stuff that really dont fit (such as a extremely realistic AK or a pumpkin man(assuming you think it also doesnt fit since it isnt even futuristic and just weird that doesnt fit into a faction or lore))
- we dont know if there will be a pumpkin faction or literally the USSR as a faction in 2.5, this is quite ridiculous but i think you get the idea behind this, i just used a ridiculous example, and then if the polls happen before 2.5 it would probably be downvoted into hell, but maybe the polls happen before Eric releases stuff (again i am unsure) so maybe, maybe that could get in
- we dont know how guns that are currently in 2.5 are, there are a few but we dont know how many or how exactly they are, so maybe like a different alien pistol is already there and we dont know, this could generate issues you mention further with the slot 1 SMGs

so this doesnt only affect your view, but also popularity if the polls happen before 2.5, so the method for solving it other than accepting almost everything is just running the polls after the release or after Eric tells people what is going to be in it, allowing everybody to submit everything

and i wont get into the fact that people will probably still submit things even if theyre completely ridiculous, and if they had feedback (last time a bunch of people criticized others in the fan art section and many who were even ridiculed still submitted their stuff)




Roxxar wrote:6) ANOTHER straw man that you, phsc, dont apply to yourself for some reason! YOU think some futuristic guns look ridiculous, therefore all possible futuristic guns will look ridiculous? thats a subjective opinion i distinctly tried to avoid yet you pinned on me, now im gonna pin it on you because you explicitly said it. who's to say they'll look ridiculous? from my personal experience, i've been submitting moderately sized and shaped guns nowhere near the size of, lets say, the heavy railgun or pre-war gauss gun that got in -- so much so that the falkok guns have been labeled as toys in comparison to the other guns it was submitted alongside with. sure a couple futuristic submissions in the 1st thread were arguably ridiculous, but im not gonna say that myself because thats my opinion that may or may not be shared with a minority of the community!

since i think youre using your opinion that we should keep PB2 as it is - as in what should get in following the lore and keeping current proportions of realistic:futuristic - i used my opinion that they are ridiculous and also keep in mind ive seen more people say that
and again the only method of knowing this would be with data so we would need to check for comments made in that period of time, also in the discord server, but then we dont have access to other PB2 groups n etc n etc
what youre ignoring is that its also your opinion that we should keep it as it is, and in the forums it seems like most people agree with that kind of mentality



Roxxar wrote:?.?) i have no clue what DARK CLAN actually is, so im gonna ignore that sentiment

DARK CLAN is prob the only actual PB2 clan and it is quite big, i used to be part of it, it is highly not organized and the only figure it has is paulstin, what happens is that anyone can join and a lot of newer players, kids, people that wont stay much in the game and also some that will, join it, but unlike most of us (assuming you dont), they actually play PB2 constantly, its a good way to get a general idea of what people want, and there are people that disagree with each other even in that

Roxxar wrote:7) again, i have no problem with this demand for realistic stuff! i have a problem with the precedent it holds!
- let's have a terrorist faction! ok great
- lets have some terrorist skins! fantastic, could always use new skins
- how about some weapons for them to use! awesome, there's already a few for them
- and some decorations! sure, the game could always use some different decorations and designs
- now lets have some counter-terrorists with the same concepts as above! okay, i suppose that only fits
- they should have different guns than the terrorists! i guess that would make sense...
- ooh what if the terrorists hired mercenaries to help them fight the CTs like in Strike Force Heroes 3! uhh...

well you get the point i dont need to derail that example any further. nowhere when you argue for this terrorist stuff do you argue for the futuristic stuff alongside it! this makes me believe that you dont REALLY care for this balance, but rather the opportunity and freedom of expression in the level editor to create neo-historic maps and scenarios that will make gun and history nuts go crazy. WHICH ISNT BAD, but it seems in all of your examples you're forgetting the balance and the theme upon which the game was founded!

im not saying that futuristic stuff or TERRORIST FUTURISTIC STUFF shouldnt get into the game, and just because i have a d-day map it doesnt mean i want that for only myself, but there are quite a ton of d-day maps mostly after gani made his that was popular

and again i was assuming that everybody accepts the balance and theme as what defines what should get in, its a view, as i mentioned, a reactionary view

and these guns can even maybe not be allowed in approved maps where balance actually affects things, another thing i quite forgot to mention, we could accept a literal AK-47 for only custom maps, maybe make them like a toggle button in the level editor for these realistic guns, maybe this mentality comes from the m4a1 and the glock but maps made before it already wanted such mentality such as x death-realwar n base maps

Roxxar wrote:and again, this isnt a conversation about futurism vs realism, it's about balance and discretion. idgaf if there are realistic guns and factions in-game, but because i think this is a futuristic-themed game, it should have more futuristic-themed stuff!

again, your opinion that we should keep it as it is
but even then, why not a mix, like, again, my AV-235, is it futuristic or realistic? i had a talk with some people, some said futuristic because fancy lights n lasers n shit, some said realistic with fancy lights n shit that lacks creativity, again, this is too subjective, a poll or free-market capitalism could solve this(the second being prob impossible to implement in a realistic way), or just Eric picking what he likes



Roxxar wrote:finally, no i dont want to read those authors and economists. i ultimately dont care enough about what happens with the submissions/acceptances to attempt to argue through an educated economical and sociological perspective. again, this is all in the lens of an observant, hopeless romantic (and by romantic i mean romanticism, not affection); i have no expectation of changing minds really, but i had hoped that maybe this could spark some thought about it!

this was about the supply and demand things i mentioned, not about PB2 directly, also directed to incompetence



Roxxar wrote:tl;dr - i think the fundamental basis with which i am discussing this is as follows:
i think pb2 to be a futuristic game, therefore i think there should be more futuristic stuff regardless of the potetial of the level editor/custom maps. if you fundamentally disagree with that statement, well idk what else to tell you and i'd dare say there's nothing more to discuss. we can agree to disagree here and move on.
if you DO agree, here's my schtick: artists should think to themselves: hey, am i submitting too much realistic stuff? is there enough realistic stuff submitted that mine isn't distinctly unique in comparison to? what futurism does this realism balance out?
are these questions so unfair for people to ask themselves before they submit something? or does the glory of having their stuff physically in-game astronomically outweigh the metaphysical questions and consequences of not doing so?
[/quote]
i think taht society is what it is, so it keep being what it is with no changes that might make it better or worse
that is the problem im trying to mention, its your opinion of your reactionary PB2istic views, im using reactionary and not conservative cuz of the philosophical bases of like Burke that would say "KEEP THE FUTURISTIC STUFF AND ACCEPT BOTH THE REALISTIC AND FUTURISTIC ONES" while reactionary - and dont take it as it is often used as people who are agaisnt democracy and in for fascism n shit yet its philosophical base which has a lot of shit in it so i wont get into it) would say to keep how it is currently is(adding new stuff to fit what currently is keeping the 2:7 scale as i understand your opinion is) while someone that isnt any of that, i dont like the term liberal, would want to accept more realistic guns and things that go agaisnt what the game currently has









now into Krutz

Krutz wrote:when i see a weapon that obviously resembles something in real life "submitted" to be possibly added to the game, i just kinda roll my eyes... i dont give a sht if it gets into the game really, i think the more guns added, the better (i suppose), but id rather see stuff that arent just copies of real guns

so, my AV-235, where does it fit? its a good example of how this line is too subjective, the AK that dude made, it is pretty much a copy, it doesnt have futuristic elements, and i think its art-style doesnt fit well enought too

and i agree that my SCAR is a literal copy, but i think the AUG which i made some changes to so it isnt a 1:1 copy could be accepted, coming from what i mentioned about supply generating demand which is true but not completely as Incompetence was saying, what we see affects what we want and what we use as in, if there is only one gun for a faction, i cannot use it for a full map beceause of the lack of variety for said faction and thus it could be boring, like that, and the CS-OICW has a different color scheme and damage values and also gameplay, so maybe guns that fit well with it could be added, the KSG could be a slug shotgun as you mentioned, the AUG a high penetration slower firging rifle to actually combat the alien rifle, just examples it doesnt need to be my guns or whatever

Krutz wrote:but then theres also the issue of functionality redundancy... think the little bastard and the ghost—theyre almost exactly the same weapons. thats where i would kinda give a sht if the art gets into the game, because its effectively already in the game

i agree, the general idea behing my AV-235 is that it would take over the AV-135 because it is too big in comparison to other guns and mostly for a slot 2, people wanted a remake, and the others have functionality, one could say that what i am supposing with my AUG is what the PHANX does but the PHANX has too low damage and the CR-45 has too different damage and in general way values from my experience using it as well as people not using it too, and since we cannot mod damage for approved maps which would solve a lot of problems, it is quite needed, again its an example, also one could edit the values of said guns

but i agree with you a lot actually, i think factions having different things to achieve the same result, such as the AV-135 and the CS-RC, is fine, but if it is for the same faction or newer factions, why? the example you used being the biggest, but i think we have too many generic railguns at the moment too, and theyre like not directly linked to a faction

Krutz wrote:as another example, the LMG-01m is, im pretty sure, just a better minigun c-02m... a moderate fire rate and power automatic gun with volatile accuracy

i think it isnt that bad because the the minigun is c9 and it is CS, maybe we could get a alien fast firing weapon, if the values balanced each other pretty well, it would allow for lets say a 3 faction war map, etc

Krutz wrote:so if someone draws an ak, and submits it, its like: where do we put this gun in the game? what does it do, in a new fashion? considering the breadth of pb2's ballistic mechanics, pretty much nothing, itll just be another av-135 or cs-rc

and again, there is the custom map issue n everything else correlated with it, aesthetics for single player maps and other things, since youre more of an approved map player, i see your points, but you should consider custom maps too, aesthetics are important for people that create said style of maps, but we do need more versality and balance for approved maps to also be balanced, an CS-RC vs an alien rifle is what should be the lore standard but theyre too different for a balanced map for each two sides, unless its a DM map

but i ask, is my AV-235 realistic by your standards? the AUG? etc

i mean, its too subjective, doom moving that post of mine to other art while i dont remember if it was Roxxar or you who said it would still belong in the fan-art section, while my SCAR which is almost a 1:1 copy that was made for a meme was able to stay there








now into Incompetence

Incompetence wrote:i only find the CS weapons like the CS-RC, etc to be full on generic because they're literally just copies of the things they're based off of. things like the KSG you made or the VHS-2 variant I made aren't exactly "generic" in terms of the style to me but not entirely unique either. i also don't mind if real life weapons do get added in the game because there's nothing wrong with them. i even make those types of weapons myself; i simply just don't want the amount of real life weapons added to outnumber the amount of futuristic/non-real life weapons in the game. i'm not particularly of the opinion that we should focus more on X type of gun over Y; i'm more of a "why not both" person in this discussion. real life guns are unique enough in this game because they're a small percentage of weapons available in the game and it gives those weapons a unique identity and place in this game, which is a good thing imo.

considering what i mentioned to Roxxar, you would be a conservative as in the purest not deturped term

and again, im quite similar to you, when i was younger i made a bunch of 1:1 copies of guns, but if you take a look, i am quite balanced now, while i did submit the AUG the SCAR and the AV-235 i submitted that black n blue gun, the green heater and that gun that fits in with the plasmagun n raygun in color scheme that i dont have a name for or an absolute functionality

Incompetence wrote:but you say that real life guns being generic is our opinion but then you follow this up with your own opinion that continuing to follow the futuristic style will get boring. i'd contend that futuristic designs, regardless of how ridiculous they may look, would be more interesting because they would be designs that haven't been seen before in a completely recognizable form. seeing an AK clone in this game along with other real life guns will get boring quicker because everyone has seen them already before frequently. how would seeing something like an AR-15 or an AK in this game be less boring than continuing to create something that isn't a weapon that already exists?

it isnt my opinion, its my observations over what happens, im also not saying that a bunch of realistic guns wont get boring, but considering the supply and demand ive been able to assume in the game it would be better as in for the PB2 masses, maybe not for what i like to call the elite which are the forum users

considering amount of people the realsitic:futuristic amount should have realistic over futuristic, since there is no such thing as capital to fix that problem in the game, but if there was i would say that the correlation would be 1:1 but then im just assuming things without data or anything because we dont ahve one, just using my memory to check for things

but i think it was quite of a mistake made by my part not explaining well my thoughts

Incompetence wrote:i hold the belief that in a somewhat far future game like PB2, "real life" weapons should be fairly uncommon and not a massive part of that game's arsenal unless there's a really good and believable explanation as to why that's the case. destiny 1 and 2 for example incorporate weapons based off real guns just fine: they are a very small percent of the entire weapons list and don't constitute a large portion of it for no reason and especially not for the sake of some weird pre-established demand, even after their inclusion, and they are explained as being relics from the past, a believable explanation for the setting. PB2 in my opinion would do good to do something like this if it ever decided to include more weapons while keeping the in-game universe in mind. the game can add 70 real life guns in and i wouldn't have a problem, but don't make it 70% of the in-game arsenal. don't forget that there's also a game in the series before PB2 that features an entirely futuristic arsenal so it's clear the game is attempting to go to a futuristic design direction. to go from seeing futuristic color tracer shooting guns in FTTP to AK/AR-15 clones in PB2 in-universe/world would be quite jarring. switching back and forth between futuristic and real life guns would just make the game lose sight of what exactly it wants to be because of these clashing styles trying to exist in the forefront.

then we go back to the era aspect i mentioned in the shotgun post, PB lore in theory has multiple eras, why not have like guns that are less futuristic in the past then you can see them liek damaged in the future? that would be really cool and apocalypse maps (in custom maps, mostly roleplaying which is an extremely popular thing or at least used to be) could use them too, and it can do it, but youre assuming it needs to fit hte lore, we can just never mention it in the campaign, not allow these guns in approved maps and only let them there for custom maps to use, and im unsure if youre talking to this including my AV-235 in the list of realistic weapons
also another thing, futuristic guns could just be evolved realistic designs, or guns considered futuristic or interesting in modern times, like a AUG, a XM8 or a P90, not an AK-47 directly, but since if we do get to have a terrorist faction(i will mention this again later) an AK fits with their style of using older stuff because terrorists in real life do that




Incompetence wrote:this question was literally the reason i was asking if fan art technically exists in canon, because there is no way to determine if anything added actually does exist now in the story or not. i mean, you can have lore friendly things like say, a CS skin, but have it be non-canon after all.

and even if we assume to have only what we currently have as canon, we dont know what is going on in 2.5 and in Erics mind too

Incompetence wrote:as for the AV/terrorist thing, the only thing really giving that faction idea a foundation inside the actual game is the terrorists and counter-terrorists teams in the level editor but again, it leads to the problem of those being considered canon or not because there's no criteria on what establishes something as part of the actual story.

i think we could add things based on what people want, i will mention this again in my reply to tehswordninja

Incompetence wrote:on another note, having a gun belonging to a new faction that we haven't seen in-game but having no user affiliated with said faction is weird because without that character, who is the gun for then and who's going to use it? yeah, having terrorist guns is cool and an interesting angle to have in the game but where are the terrorists? this just leads to issues where a random faction can be created via a created weapon or armor set with no other complementary assets but that faction is just empty and simply a name, lacking a proper identity and presence no different than if said faction never existed, because there is no other material to get that from.

lostmydollar/jason eden submitted the AV guns but he also made terrorist characters that werent accepted or submitted i dont really remember, but i think his design wasnt that good, i might take my time and make some characters for said faction
i think we could have weapon manufacturers that are just generic, that is a possibility that can be canon, like the CR, what is the CR? we have no idea, but it could just be a gun manufacturer instead of a faction, while the AV has the chance of being a really cool faction as in it had submitted/created skins and demand for

Incompetence wrote:PB2's lore is nearly a blank canvas anyways; just about anyone can create a faction or race (see: raven, reakhosha, etc) but those factions themselves aren't really anything. with the CS for example, you at least can see their design language and aesthetic and see what their whole idea is supposed to be. how is anyone supposed to really make anything fitting for something like the reakhosha or even terrorists when there's no proper design language or aesthetic established? if terrorists use whatever weapons they can find, something has to exist that shows that. if they don't, that instead has to be signified then. the AV-135 and Needle can't do that alone so now there's weapons for a faction that literally no one knows what the faction even is. you can only infer so much out of one or two assets for an entirely new faction but it won't give an entirely clear picture on that faction alone.

exactly, i dont think raven are a good idea, reakhosha have quite the potential, aesthetics were defined quite decently i think, but what happens is taht a lot of stuff wasnt accepted, and again, people can just assume and do what they think fits well, as these also came out of nowhere

also going to mention taht who knows if there are new factions in 2.5 too, like one we cant even imagine, having Eric here would make things so better






now to tehswordninja

tehswordninja wrote:I'm one of the folks who's always wanted a Rebel faction, or at least some non-CS human guns besides Correction Nine. The fanart update gave us that, although we sadly didn't get a rebel skin or two.

we had them created at least, just didnt get into the game, as well as more terrorist stuff, created by... terror only aka lostmydollar/jason eden

tehswordninja wrote:I think these guns are fine so long as they show themselves as an evolution of a real-life modern (but much older in the PB2 universe) design. For example, I don't have an issue with a generic AK so long as it can show that it's not a copy of an AKM, but rather what an AK or another similar (I say this since we have an AV-135, not an AK-135) family type of rifle may look like in a couple hundred of years from now. I think the AV-135 does this ok, but it could use some work on its proportions and such.

and i think we could have evolutions within the same factions, the AV-135 is too big so i dislike it but, it has no lasers or fancy lights or wahtever, then there is the AV-235 i made, which, well, looks more technological, doesnt it? its supposedly technologically superior

[/quote]I certainly don't care much for straight-up copies of existing real-life weapons but I'll give the CS weapons a pass since they won't be going from the game any time soon and they don't stick out too badly in my eyes. I wouldn't have an issue with the designs being updated to be a bit more futuristic looking but that's beside the point.[/quote]
i think we can compare that to actual military, while the USSR had some really technological stuff in the 80s, you could still see deliciously exquisite pizza sauce T34s being used even, that could be the realistic stuff, like a CS-RC, etc

also we dont know when the fancy plasma or laser or railgun technologies were developed in PB2s lore as well as a lack of values

tehswordninja wrote:I will agree that I would love for fan artists to create more of the niche weapons; android, Falkok, Alien, C9, but I also wouldn't have issues with fan artists adding to what the fan art update brought; more Crossfire weapons, maybe a Crossfire trooper skin, a few rebel skins to match the RPG/AV-135/Needle, maybe another PHANX weapon or even a skin, etc.

i agree, looks like Roxxar doesnt because he wants to keep the same ratio of guns, his opinion as i mentioned

tehswordninja wrote:I do think that fan artists should be taking a look at the current guns in the game before they make their work. I feel like people just make guns with no consideration for where they would fit in the sandbox.. or if they're even needed in it. It'd be a lot better if people did what I just said and look for existing niches, both old and new, and tried to create skins and weapons that would flesh them out some more.

exactly, and even then, if they submit, just dont accept it, like i made some that literally dont fit anywhere, such as lets say my heater or my black n blue gun, but i think maybe they could be a WEAPON MANUFACTURER of said color scheme, we dont have something black other than the CS ghosts, and another green faction but a different tone from the CS or the AV that makes more futuristic wepaons wouldnt be bad

we should create weapon companies and manufacturers not direclty as factions, but things such as the AVesque peeps, since there were characters made but they were quite out of hte PB2 style, i think it would be nice to create them as a faction, my opinion though






i wont tldr because it depends on what topic was talked



also dont consider it as an appeal to authority when i mention authors cuz im trying to use arguments and post that you could take a look at them for things such as supply and demand but we wont get into that anything it seems like




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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby XFrostByteX » 26 May 2019, 20:09

Why are you making such a giant fuss about one person's opinion Phsc.

Every one of your posts is like the Hindenburg—A giant thing full of gas and ready to explode once some guy takes a match to what your saying.

It's completely valid to say that there are too many realistic gun submissions because they
1. Lack any sort of creativity/inspiration (since you're copying an IRL design)
2. Don't fit with the original aesthetic of PB2
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby Sgt Dwayne » 26 May 2019, 21:17

Roxxar wrote:
i tried very hard to say that these are my personal interjections and not "arguments" but rather a conversation, and i love the amount of sarcasm and wit you're starting to put into these posts. that's a sarcastic statement in and of itself, but still i think its ironic that coming from someone who had such an enlightened view of flamewars and argumentative debates (which i didnt say it was nor had an intention to do so! i said moreso that its a conversation several times)

sarcasm and irony dont make things bad or good, like we have serious authors that made use of that a lot in the past, good example is Voltaire, if you read some of his stuff it has what 18th century sarcasm and irony were like, you can also see some authors like indirectly making fun out of others, Kant doing that with Descartes, Schopenhauer doing that with Hegel, etc, it imo and prob in their opinions too just makes things more interesting

also there are no such thing as flamewars, only those who abuse fallacies or cannot deal with arguments so they try to make chaos and attack people because theyre dumb and biased




Roxxar wrote:
1) yes, i do think there should be more futuristic guns! without the fanart factions, thats a ratio of 1:5 ratio of realistic to futuristic (cs:everything else). it's a game about the future! of course i want more futuristic guns. in my scrapped draft response, i even mentioned this point. slot disparity will happen for the same reason there is factional fanart disparity; you're saying you want to control slots over factions, but isnt that the same essence of controlling what artists want to submit?

first of all there is a big difference submitting and accepting, i dont want any control other than quality but i find extremely unlikely for that to happen so lets use something that is better than futuristic or realistic as a whole, apply that concept to faction and slots
i mean that AK-47 that dude submitted, it wont get accepted, if it does Eric who deliciously exquisite pizza sauce owns the game can just say a no, it doesnt have much of an artstyle that fits, and there are better guns for said functions that have been submitted (my AV-235)

everybody could just submit a bunch of slot 2s, Eric could be like "i dont need 35 AK-47s let me accept a few only or one of these", etc




Roxxar wrote:
2) can you please stop trying to throw around straw mans of assuming my implicit "arguments" of "roxxar hates ABC therefore XYZ he knows best." i cant tell if they're hyperbolic or literal; either way, i think its an oversimplification of what i am trying to say. i want this to be an emphasis on artists' discretion and submissions, with my subjective lens and insight as to what that means. nowhere have i claimed that i am trying to be authoritative or superior about this; its all in the form of a plea/request yet you somehow twist it into some roxxar-based fantasy?

just focus on accepting and not submitting, simple as that, we wont and cant stop artists from creating realistic art and we also shouldnt because its useless, also its your opinion when you talk about PB2 needing futuristic guns because some people want realistic guns, just because a thing is a thing it does not mean that said thing needs more of that specific thing, its an opinion, some might want diversity, some dont, let the majority vote and make Eric our own true god accept stuff, even then the way the poll was done didnt consdier the generic DARK CLAN member who has a valid opinion though probably less developed or rational but that doesnt make it invalid




Roxxar wrote:
3) the ideas are what matter! not the fact that they wont be used/popular. admittedly im gonna get up on a high horse for this, but i do think the idea of my cyber grub/android/usurper (this doesnt have to be my art alone; it could be anyone's assuming they make it!) weapons is better than the idea of a "futuristic rebel AR15/AKM/Uzi" ! see point 5 for further clarification

i disagree, your pistol is almost an exact copy of the c01, also not really, why create something that will see no use and why remove something that will to add said thing? and again why not both?




Roxxar wrote:
4) there's a norm because if there wasn't a norm, this would be gmod! this is not gmod. there's a theme and story to the campaign and i dont think its fair to say that we can and should allow whatever we want just because there's a level editor that's fairly intuitive and genius in terms of advanced custom gameplay that the community can control. if you (rhetorically speaking; i am not physically speaking to you, the reader [i.e. phsc], in this figurative comparison) really want to make a WW2 map that's accurate down to the rubble created when a german apartment building was accidentally demolished due to a 2cm Flak 30/Flakvierling 38, i do truly believe that you have a skewed image of what the game is like, and you have an incorrect target audience in mind!
if you want to create a ww2 SIMILAR map with single-shot rifles and the occasional machine gun crew between two opposing foreign parties in a ruined urban battlefield, then boy does the level editor have what you need!

yes this is a futuristic game, it does not mean it needs to be a futuristic game forever, and it does not exclude the fact that new things that are not futuristic can be added, and i dont see a problem with this being like GMOD because, here is the amazing part, we can keep the campaign and all of that futuristic cool-sexy n all nice, but what happens is that in multiplayer what many times is more popular is something that goes against the topic of the game, so why not give said people a product to work with? it does not mean accepting 35 AK-47s or direct real life copies, instead of something like what that dude submitted, what about my AV-235? thats what im trying to say



Roxxar wrote:
5) the removal of guns is something that this game should not support! in fact that sounds exactly like the opposite of what you, phsc, want when it comes to chancing your art to get into the game. first people have chance their odds that their submission is popular enough, THEN they have to chance their odds that their submission will STAY popular enough?

why not? things evolve, some stop being used or being considered good by others

this is quite deeper than this, should PB2 follow its lore and only and thus lose popularity, or should we adapt so more people come in, or it adapts with the time or need of its players?

this is just one of the methods of dealing with that, and if Eric thinks a gun really belongs into the game, he could just... not remove it! because its his game so he can do whatever he wants, right? he just chooses to do what people want

Roxxar wrote:
im glad you also made a hasty generalization of saying these "futuristic" guns will not be used because ding ding ding thats a fallacy. how does anyone know that. here's a thought: you said no one uses the CS-OICW therefore does this mean other realistic guns akin to it will not be used?

how do people in the market know that a thing is used? they see it now and assume how it will be, is it an absolute truth? no, i know that

what happens is that if you go in right now and check all maps being played you will probably see most guns being realistic than futuristic, maybe not in approved maps because of how people tend to stay within the topic but custom almost for sure, the CS-OICW is a more specific case because of how its DPS is quite different from other guns and how it plays differently, as it is a burst rifle, with a separate color scheme, if we add more into said themes it might get popular, and you can make an argument that grubs could become more popular if they had grub weapons that is probably true, probably because i cannot predict the future, if we had actual data things would be easier to deal with, but this for reaistic guns is a thing i remember quite well from the past, and by past i mean before the new gun update, the CS weapons were in a general way more used that the futuristic ones mostly in custom maps, like bases, people put CS guns and not alien guns, sometimes they do but its rare, approved and unranked maps tend to be more into PB2s lore though then we have like jason eden and his maps...

Roxxar wrote:
popularity does not determine whether or not a gun should be submitted (SUBMITTED, not "accepted" please dont go on a tangent about "didnt you just say popular vote something something elitist polls"), thematics (and i suppose slot disparity, which i said several times i agree with) should

what does? your opinion that we should keep the 2:7 ratio? thats your opinion, what if i want that ratio to be 7:2? popularity is the best method of solving things, that is why capitalism tends to work better than other systems in real life, because of the market, in this case it is more like democracy because you cannot like spend 5000 in a gun you like when the average is 1000, everybody would have the same amount of money in this system because there is none and only a vote, we are also assuming that Eric and staff will use a poll again, maybe they just will handpick stuff or whatever
and again there is the problem that a lot of people from PB2 didnt get to know about the poll or didnt vote etc etc etc, mostly those who really play the game such as DARK CLAN members i will explain this later


so here is how i view it, anything should be submitted, its like opening a company, you can open it and sell literally shit, maybe people who like scat will buy it, but unless said people really value your system they could pay much to keep you going, does this happen with PB2? we dont have data on what is used and what is not and Eric should add that kind of thing probably, submissions seem to attract a bunch of weird things (like that pumpkin man) that really dont fit, let him send that, if we had a upvote button in the forums(old suggestion) it would make it easier to see what fits and what doesnt for these newer artists, but back into the capitalism example, maybe people would like to have the pumpkin man into the game, turns out that probably not many would (i dont think you disagree with this generalization), and now we get into a problem of what youre saying:

artists shouldnt submit stuff that really dont fit (such as a extremely realistic AK or a pumpkin man(assuming you think it also doesnt fit since it isnt even futuristic and just weird that doesnt fit into a faction or lore))
- we dont know if there will be a pumpkin faction or literally the USSR as a faction in 2.5, this is quite ridiculous but i think you get the idea behind this, i just used a ridiculous example, and then if the polls happen before 2.5 it would probably be downvoted into hell, but maybe the polls happen before Eric releases stuff (again i am unsure) so maybe, maybe that could get in
- we dont know how guns that are currently in 2.5 are, there are a few but we dont know how many or how exactly they are, so maybe like a different alien pistol is already there and we dont know, this could generate issues you mention further with the slot 1 SMGs

so this doesnt only affect your view, but also popularity if the polls happen before 2.5, so the method for solving it other than accepting almost everything is just running the polls after the release or after Eric tells people what is going to be in it, allowing everybody to submit everything

and i wont get into the fact that people will probably still submit things even if theyre completely ridiculous, and if they had feedback (last time a bunch of people criticized others in the fan art section and many who were even ridiculed still submitted their stuff)




Roxxar wrote:
6) ANOTHER straw man that you, phsc, dont apply to yourself for some reason! YOU think some futuristic guns look ridiculous, therefore all possible futuristic guns will look ridiculous? thats a subjective opinion i distinctly tried to avoid yet you pinned on me, now im gonna pin it on you because you explicitly said it. who's to say they'll look ridiculous? from my personal experience, i've been submitting moderately sized and shaped guns nowhere near the size of, lets say, the heavy railgun or pre-war gauss gun that got in -- so much so that the falkok guns have been labeled as toys in comparison to the other guns it was submitted alongside with. sure a couple futuristic submissions in the 1st thread were arguably ridiculous, but im not gonna say that myself because thats my opinion that may or may not be shared with a minority of the community!

since i think youre using your opinion that we should keep PB2 as it is - as in what should get in following the lore and keeping current proportions of realistic:futuristic - i used my opinion that they are ridiculous and also keep in mind ive seen more people say that
and again the only method of knowing this would be with data so we would need to check for comments made in that period of time, also in the discord server, but then we dont have access to other PB2 groups n etc n etc
what youre ignoring is that its also your opinion that we should keep it as it is, and in the forums it seems like most people agree with that kind of mentality



Roxxar wrote:
?.?) i have no clue what DARK CLAN actually is, so im gonna ignore that sentiment

DARK CLAN is prob the only actual PB2 clan and it is quite big, i used to be part of it, it is highly not organized and the only figure it has is paulstin, what happens is that anyone can join and a lot of newer players, kids, people that wont stay much in the game and also some that will, join it, but unlike most of us (assuming you dont), they actually play PB2 constantly, its a good way to get a general idea of what people want, and there are people that disagree with each other even in that

Roxxar wrote:
7) again, i have no problem with this demand for realistic stuff! i have a problem with the precedent it holds!
- let's have a terrorist faction! ok great
- lets have some terrorist skins! fantastic, could always use new skins
- how about some weapons for them to use! awesome, there's already a few for them
- and some decorations! sure, the game could always use some different decorations and designs
- now lets have some counter-terrorists with the same concepts as above! okay, i suppose that only fits
- they should have different guns than the terrorists! i guess that would make sense...
- ooh what if the terrorists hired mercenaries to help them fight the CTs like in Strike Force Heroes 3! uhh...

well you get the point i dont need to derail that example any further. nowhere when you argue for this terrorist stuff do you argue for the futuristic stuff alongside it! this makes me believe that you dont REALLY care for this balance, but rather the opportunity and freedom of expression in the level editor to create neo-historic maps and scenarios that will make gun and history nuts go crazy. WHICH ISNT BAD, but it seems in all of your examples you're forgetting the balance and the theme upon which the game was founded!

im not saying that futuristic stuff or TERRORIST FUTURISTIC STUFF shouldnt get into the game, and just because i have a d-day map it doesnt mean i want that for only myself, but there are quite a ton of d-day maps mostly after gani made his that was popular

and again i was assuming that everybody accepts the balance and theme as what defines what should get in, its a view, as i mentioned, a reactionary view

and these guns can even maybe not be allowed in approved maps where balance actually affects things, another thing i quite forgot to mention, we could accept a literal AK-47 for only custom maps, maybe make them like a toggle button in the level editor for these realistic guns, maybe this mentality comes from the m4a1 and the glock but maps made before it already wanted such mentality such as x death-realwar n base maps

Roxxar wrote:
and again, this isnt a conversation about futurism vs realism, it's about balance and discretion. idgaf if there are realistic guns and factions in-game, but because i think this is a futuristic-themed game, it should have more futuristic-themed stuff!

again, your opinion that we should keep it as it is
but even then, why not a mix, like, again, my AV-235, is it futuristic or realistic? i had a talk with some people, some said futuristic because fancy lights n lasers n shit, some said realistic with fancy lights n shit that lacks creativity, again, this is too subjective, a poll or free-market capitalism could solve this(the second being prob impossible to implement in a realistic way), or just Eric picking what he likes



Roxxar wrote:
finally, no i dont want to read those authors and economists. i ultimately dont care enough about what happens with the submissions/acceptances to attempt to argue through an educated economical and sociological perspective. again, this is all in the lens of an observant, hopeless romantic (and by romantic i mean romanticism, not affection); i have no expectation of changing minds really, but i had hoped that maybe this could spark some thought about it!

this was about the supply and demand things i mentioned, not about PB2 directly, also directed to incompetence



Roxxar wrote:
tl;dr - i think the fundamental basis with which i am discussing this is as follows:
i think pb2 to be a futuristic game, therefore i think there should be more futuristic stuff regardless of the potetial of the level editor/custom maps. if you fundamentally disagree with that statement, well idk what else to tell you and i'd dare say there's nothing more to discuss. we can agree to disagree here and move on.
if you DO agree, here's my schtick: artists should think to themselves: hey, am i submitting too much realistic stuff? is there enough realistic stuff submitted that mine isn't distinctly unique in comparison to? what futurism does this realism balance out?
are these questions so unfair for people to ask themselves before they submit something? or does the glory of having their stuff physically in-game astronomically outweigh the metaphysical questions and consequences of not doing so?

i think taht society is what it is, so it keep being what it is with no changes that might make it better or worse
that is the problem im trying to mention, its your opinion of your reactionary PB2istic views, im using reactionary and not conservative cuz of the philosophical bases of like Burke that would say "KEEP THE FUTURISTIC STUFF AND ACCEPT BOTH THE REALISTIC AND FUTURISTIC ONES" while reactionary - and dont take it as it is often used as people who are agaisnt democracy and in for fascism n shit yet its philosophical base which has a lot of shit in it so i wont get into it) would say to keep how it is currently is(adding new stuff to fit what currently is keeping the 2:7 scale as i understand your opinion is) while someone that isnt any of that, i dont like the term liberal, would want to accept more realistic guns and things that go agaisnt what the game currently has









now into Krutz

Krutz wrote:
when i see a weapon that obviously resembles something in real life "submitted" to be possibly added to the game, i just kinda roll my eyes... i dont give a sht if it gets into the game really, i think the more guns added, the better (i suppose), but id rather see stuff that arent just copies of real guns

so, my AV-235, where does it fit? its a good example of how this line is too subjective, the AK that dude made, it is pretty much a copy, it doesnt have futuristic elements, and i think its art-style doesnt fit well enought too

and i agree that my SCAR is a literal copy, but i think the AUG which i made some changes to so it isnt a 1:1 copy could be accepted, coming from what i mentioned about supply generating demand which is true but not completely as Incompetence was saying, what we see affects what we want and what we use as in, if there is only one gun for a faction, i cannot use it for a full map beceause of the lack of variety for said faction and thus it could be boring, like that, and the CS-OICW has a different color scheme and damage values and also gameplay, so maybe guns that fit well with it could be added, the KSG could be a slug shotgun as you mentioned, the AUG a high penetration slower firging rifle to actually combat the alien rifle, just examples it doesnt need to be my guns or whatever

Krutz wrote:
but then theres also the issue of functionality redundancy... think the little bastard and the ghost—theyre almost exactly the same weapons. thats where i would kinda give a sht if the art gets into the game, because its effectively already in the game

i agree, the general idea behing my AV-235 is that it would take over the AV-135 because it is too big in comparison to other guns and mostly for a slot 2, people wanted a remake, and the others have functionality, one could say that what i am supposing with my AUG is what the PHANX does but the PHANX has too low damage and the CR-45 has too different damage and in general way values from my experience using it as well as people not using it too, and since we cannot mod damage for approved maps which would solve a lot of problems, it is quite needed, again its an example, also one could edit the values of said guns

but i agree with you a lot actually, i think factions having different things to achieve the same result, such as the AV-135 and the CS-RC, is fine, but if it is for the same faction or newer factions, why? the example you used being the biggest, but i think we have too many generic railguns at the moment too, and theyre like not directly linked to a faction

Krutz wrote:
as another example, the LMG-01m is, im pretty sure, just a better minigun c-02m... a moderate fire rate and power automatic gun with volatile accuracy

i think it isnt that bad because the the minigun is c9 and it is CS, maybe we could get a alien fast firing weapon, if the values balanced each other pretty well, it would allow for lets say a 3 faction war map, etc

Krutz wrote:
so if someone draws an ak, and submits it, its like: where do we put this gun in the game? what does it do, in a new fashion? considering the breadth of pb2's ballistic mechanics, pretty much nothing, itll just be another av-135 or cs-rc

and again, there is the custom map issue n everything else correlated with it, aesthetics for single player maps and other things, since youre more of an approved map player, i see your points, but you should consider custom maps too, aesthetics are important for people that create said style of maps, but we do need more versality and balance for approved maps to also be balanced, an CS-RC vs an alien rifle is what should be the lore standard but theyre too different for a balanced map for each two sides, unless its a DM map

but i ask, is my AV-235 realistic by your standards? the AUG? etc

i mean, its too subjective, doom moving that post of mine to other art while i dont remember if it was Roxxar or you who said it would still belong in the fan-art section, while my SCAR which is almost a 1:1 copy that was made for a meme was able to stay there








now into Incompetence

Incompetence wrote:
i only find the CS weapons like the CS-RC, etc to be full on generic because they're literally just copies of the things they're based off of. things like the KSG you made or the VHS-2 variant I made aren't exactly "generic" in terms of the style to me but not entirely unique either. i also don't mind if real life weapons do get added in the game because there's nothing wrong with them. i even make those types of weapons myself; i simply just don't want the amount of real life weapons added to outnumber the amount of futuristic/non-real life weapons in the game. i'm not particularly of the opinion that we should focus more on X type of gun over Y; i'm more of a "why not both" person in this discussion. real life guns are unique enough in this game because they're a small percentage of weapons available in the game and it gives those weapons a unique identity and place in this game, which is a good thing imo.

considering what i mentioned to Roxxar, you would be a conservative as in the purest not deturped term

and again, im quite similar to you, when i was younger i made a bunch of 1:1 copies of guns, but if you take a look, i am quite balanced now, while i did submit the AUG the SCAR and the AV-235 i submitted that black n blue gun, the green heater and that gun that fits in with the plasmagun n raygun in color scheme that i dont have a name for or an absolute functionality

Incompetence wrote:
but you say that real life guns being generic is our opinion but then you follow this up with your own opinion that continuing to follow the futuristic style will get boring. i'd contend that futuristic designs, regardless of how ridiculous they may look, would be more interesting because they would be designs that haven't been seen before in a completely recognizable form. seeing an AK clone in this game along with other real life guns will get boring quicker because everyone has seen them already before frequently. how would seeing something like an AR-15 or an AK in this game be less boring than continuing to create something that isn't a weapon that already exists?

it isnt my opinion, its my observations over what happens, im also not saying that a bunch of realistic guns wont get boring, but considering the supply and demand ive been able to assume in the game it would be better as in for the PB2 masses, maybe not for what i like to call the elite which are the forum users

considering amount of people the realsitic:futuristic amount should have realistic over futuristic, since there is no such thing as capital to fix that problem in the game, but if there was i would say that the correlation would be 1:1 but then im just assuming things without data or anything because we dont ahve one, just using my memory to check for things

but i think it was quite of a mistake made by my part not explaining well my thoughts

Incompetence wrote:
i hold the belief that in a somewhat far future game like PB2, "real life" weapons should be fairly uncommon and not a massive part of that game's arsenal unless there's a really good and believable explanation as to why that's the case. destiny 1 and 2 for example incorporate weapons based off real guns just fine: they are a very small percent of the entire weapons list and don't constitute a large portion of it for no reason and especially not for the sake of some weird pre-established demand, even after their inclusion, and they are explained as being relics from the past, a believable explanation for the setting. PB2 in my opinion would do good to do something like this if it ever decided to include more weapons while keeping the in-game universe in mind. the game can add 70 real life guns in and i wouldn't have a problem, but don't make it 70% of the in-game arsenal. don't forget that there's also a game in the series before PB2 that features an entirely futuristic arsenal so it's clear the game is attempting to go to a futuristic design direction. to go from seeing futuristic color tracer shooting guns in FTTP to AK/AR-15 clones in PB2 in-universe/world would be quite jarring. switching back and forth between futuristic and real life guns would just make the game lose sight of what exactly it wants to be because of these clashing styles trying to exist in the forefront.

then we go back to the era aspect i mentioned in the shotgun post, PB lore in theory has multiple eras, why not have like guns that are less futuristic in the past then you can see them liek damaged in the future? that would be really cool and apocalypse maps (in custom maps, mostly roleplaying which is an extremely popular thing or at least used to be) could use them too, and it can do it, but youre assuming it needs to fit hte lore, we can just never mention it in the campaign, not allow these guns in approved maps and only let them there for custom maps to use, and im unsure if youre talking to this including my AV-235 in the list of realistic weapons
also another thing, futuristic guns could just be evolved realistic designs, or guns considered futuristic or interesting in modern times, like a AUG, a XM8 or a P90, not an AK-47 directly, but since if we do get to have a terrorist faction(i will mention this again later) an AK fits with their style of using older stuff because terrorists in real life do that




Incompetence wrote:
this question was literally the reason i was asking if fan art technically exists in canon, because there is no way to determine if anything added actually does exist now in the story or not. i mean, you can have lore friendly things like say, a CS skin, but have it be non-canon after all.

and even if we assume to have only what we currently have as canon, we dont know what is going on in 2.5 and in Erics mind too

Incompetence wrote:
as for the AV/terrorist thing, the only thing really giving that faction idea a foundation inside the actual game is the terrorists and counter-terrorists teams in the level editor but again, it leads to the problem of those being considered canon or not because there's no criteria on what establishes something as part of the actual story.

i think we could add things based on what people want, i will mention this again in my reply to tehswordninja

Incompetence wrote:
on another note, having a gun belonging to a new faction that we haven't seen in-game but having no user affiliated with said faction is weird because without that character, who is the gun for then and who's going to use it? yeah, having terrorist guns is cool and an interesting angle to have in the game but where are the terrorists? this just leads to issues where a random faction can be created via a created weapon or armor set with no other complementary assets but that faction is just empty and simply a name, lacking a proper identity and presence no different than if said faction never existed, because there is no other material to get that from.

lostmydollar/jason eden submitted the AV guns but he also made terrorist characters that werent accepted or submitted i dont really remember, but i think his design wasnt that good, i might take my time and make some characters for said faction
i think we could have weapon manufacturers that are just generic, that is a possibility that can be canon, like the CR, what is the CR? we have no idea, but it could just be a gun manufacturer instead of a faction, while the AV has the chance of being a really cool faction as in it had submitted/created skins and demand for

Incompetence wrote:
PB2's lore is nearly a blank canvas anyways; just about anyone can create a faction or race (see: raven, reakhosha, etc) but those factions themselves aren't really anything. with the CS for example, you at least can see their design language and aesthetic and see what their whole idea is supposed to be. how is anyone supposed to really make anything fitting for something like the reakhosha or even terrorists when there's no proper design language or aesthetic established? if terrorists use whatever weapons they can find, something has to exist that shows that. if they don't, that instead has to be signified then. the AV-135 and Needle can't do that alone so now there's weapons for a faction that literally no one knows what the faction even is. you can only infer so much out of one or two assets for an entirely new faction but it won't give an entirely clear picture on that faction alone.

exactly, i dont think raven are a good idea, reakhosha have quite the potential, aesthetics were defined quite decently i think, but what happens is taht a lot of stuff wasnt accepted, and again, people can just assume and do what they think fits well, as these also came out of nowhere

also going to mention taht who knows if there are new factions in 2.5 too, like one we cant even imagine, having Eric here would make things so better






now to tehswordninja

tehswordninja wrote:
I'm one of the folks who's always wanted a Rebel faction, or at least some non-CS human guns besides Correction Nine. The fanart update gave us that, although we sadly didn't get a rebel skin or two.

we had them created at least, just didnt get into the game, as well as more terrorist stuff, created by... terror only aka lostmydollar/jason eden

tehswordninja wrote:
I think these guns are fine so long as they show themselves as an evolution of a real-life modern (but much older in the PB2 universe) design. For example, I don't have an issue with a generic AK so long as it can show that it's not a copy of an AKM, but rather what an AK or another similar (I say this since we have an AV-135, not an AK-135) family type of rifle may look like in a couple hundred of years from now. I think the AV-135 does this ok, but it could use some work on its proportions and such.

and i think we could have evolutions within the same factions, the AV-135 is too big so i dislike it but, it has no lasers or fancy lights or wahtever, then there is the AV-235 i made, which, well, looks more technological, doesnt it? its supposedly technologically superior

I certainly don't care much for straight-up copies of existing real-life weapons but I'll give the CS weapons a pass since they won't be going from the game any time soon and they don't stick out too badly in my eyes. I wouldn't have an issue with the designs being updated to be a bit more futuristic looking but that's beside the point.

i think we can compare that to actual military, while the USSR had some really technological stuff in the 80s, you could still see deliciously exquisite pizza sauce T34s being used even, that could be the realistic stuff, like a CS-RC, etc

also we dont know when the fancy plasma or laser or railgun technologies were developed in PB2s lore as well as a lack of values

tehswordninja wrote:
I will agree that I would love for fan artists to create more of the niche weapons; android, Falkok, Alien, C9, but I also wouldn't have issues with fan artists adding to what the fan art update brought; more Crossfire weapons, maybe a Crossfire trooper skin, a few rebel skins to match the RPG/AV-135/Needle, maybe another PHANX weapon or even a skin, etc.

i agree, looks like Roxxar doesnt because he wants to keep the same ratio of guns, his opinion as i mentioned

tehswordninja wrote:
I do think that fan artists should be taking a look at the current guns in the game before they make their work. I feel like people just make guns with no consideration for where they would fit in the sandbox.. or if they're even needed in it. It'd be a lot better if people did what I just said and look for existing niches, both old and new, and tried to create skins and weapons that would flesh them out some more.

exactly, and even then, if they submit, just dont accept it, like i made some that literally dont fit anywhere, such as lets say my heater or my black n blue gun, but i think maybe they could be a WEAPON MANUFACTURER of said color scheme, we dont have something black other than the CS ghosts, and another green faction but a different tone from the CS or the AV that makes more futuristic wepaons wouldnt be bad

we should create weapon companies and manufacturers not direclty as factions, but things such as the AVesque peeps, since there were characters made but they were quite out of hte PB2 style, i think it would be nice to create them as a faction, my opinion though






i wont tldr because it depends on what topic was talked



also dont consider it as an appeal to authority when i mention authors cuz im trying to use arguments and post that you could take a look at them for things such as supply and demand but we wont get into that anything it seems like




this is big


no
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby phsc » 26 May 2019, 21:45

XFrostByteX wrote:It's completely valid to say that there are too many realistic gun submissions because they
1. Lack any sort of creativity/inspiration (since you're copying an IRL design)
2. Don't fit with the original aesthetic of PB2


if you're doing an exact copy like that dude made with the AK-47 he submitted yes, but if you want it to be decent you need to adapt the gun a little bit like i did with my AV-235 but didn't do with the scar, you still need creativity for a different color scheme or how to make it futuristic if you want to create a decent thing but yes it requires less creativity and that is why i mention that many new artists like them for that too

second part i disagree the CS exists



dwayne ur such a high minded individual thank you for your input it will take 3 years for staff to realize that is one word posting and delete that but thank you really insightful
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby ditzy » 26 May 2019, 22:25

Roxxar wrote:[...] artists should stop trying to feel this sort of pressure to submit and get accepted, even if it meant submitting lower quality or generic art/ideas.

This.

Also, everyone's acting as if this was futuristic vs realistic. It should really be about how well the design fits within PB2 lore/ a e s t h e t i c.

Note: Of course it's fine to design your favourite weapon in the cartoonish PB2 a e s t h e t i c, but if people plan to submit the design into the game, they should probably consider how well it'll actually mesh with everything else in the game.
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby phsc » 26 May 2019, 22:38

ok so no new factions no new anything lets keep things within PB2s lore!!!


that is the problem, we don't know what is consdiered canon or not read what incompetence and i said

what happens is that people are saying: realistic = doesn't fit PB2s lore so it is still in what you're saying
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby ditzy » 26 May 2019, 22:55

phsc wrote:ok so no new factions no new anything lets keep things within PB2s lore!!! [...] what happens is that people are saying: realistic = doesn't fit PB2s lore so it is still in what you're saying

I never said realistic =/= lore-friendly nor did I say that lore-friendly == no new stuff.
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Re: Fanart Supply and Demand: A Summation

Postby phsc » 26 May 2019, 23:00

define lore friendly, i didnt say you said realistic != lore friendly but most people do think that just read this
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