Higher health in multiplayer

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Higher health in multiplayer

Postby lpzimm » 22 November 2017, 21:41

Out of curiosity, why are newer approved maps so low-health in arena right now? In my opinion, it makes it much too twitch-based and spammy, and punishes movement. Since this game is a movement oriented shooter (there's no other game where you can jump across the entire map - the movement in this game is really cool), I find that the higher-health maps prize this games strong suit much more.
I'd be willing to listen to arguments for lower-health maps though.
E: it also makes lag a bigger advantage.
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby Hikarikaze » 22 November 2017, 23:05

People generally make HP low in maps to make the time to kill in those maps much faster. I make my maps feature low health for that exact reason and to keep the gameplay more intense/risky since it's easier to get killed. The only issues with low health I experience are how easily you can die from fall damage/places least expected to die from and how it eliminates strategies I personally want to have or see like tanking without lagging. It also makes movement much slower since players have to be really careful with their fragility

High HP maps are truly becoming a rarity though. It's also because the approval requirements (which nearly every mapmaker follows) discourage higher HP values so people find there's no valid advantage or use for high HP. Personally I think lower HP maps, as with all maps, focus and reinforce different aspects of the game, just not frantic and quick paced movement in this case.
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby Red X_ » 23 November 2017, 03:17

Well tbh the only answer is that it depends on the map. In ranked theres a bit of low health usually because we need a better challenge.

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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby mrblake213 » 23 November 2017, 07:27

maybe the approval guide says so too. <3
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby Dandamage » 23 November 2017, 16:23

The newer approved maps literally HAVE to put low health, because the approval guide only allows by default 130 or 150 health. Not even 140 is allowed, so I can definitely understand it is way too strict and some changes could be made about that.
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby lpzimm » 23 November 2017, 17:56

Dandamage wrote:The newer approved maps literally HAVE to put low health, because the approval guide only allows by default 130 or 150 health. Not even 140 is allowed, so I can definitely understand it is way too strict and some changes could be made about that.

Look at the approved list. The rule doesn't seem too strict. Chesecheetos-war, approved a few weeks ago, has 200hp.

Hikarikaze wrote:People generally make HP low in maps to make the time to kill in those maps much faster. I make my maps feature low health for that exact reason and to keep the gameplay more intense/risky since it's easier to get killed. The only issues with low health I experience are how easily you can die from fall damage/places least expected to die from and how it eliminates strategies I personally want to have or see like tanking without lagging. It also makes movement much slower since players have to be really careful with their fragility

High HP maps are truly becoming a rarity though. It's also because the approval requirements (which nearly every mapmaker follows) discourage higher HP values so people find there's no valid advantage or use for high HP. Personally I think lower HP maps, as with all maps, focus and reinforce different aspects of the game, just not frantic and quick paced movement in this case.

I like that last point, but then shouldn't it be argued that both low HP and high HP maps should exist/be approved, if it provides more variety?
Also, while it seems like you don't like "reckless movement", isn't reckless spamming much worse? It takes a shot to the head from the alien shotgun to die/go dying at 130. Being able to take that shot from a spammer will at worst let the non-spammer (spamee?) escape and heal and at best give the non spammer an advantage because they know the location of the spammer. Most maps have pretty harsh lines of sight (to no fault of the map maker - the game really allows it), and so killing people without seeing them is very commonplace. High HP would force players to, for the most part, keep other players on-screen, making for a truly skilled fight.
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby Hikarikaze » 23 November 2017, 20:11

lpzimm wrote:I like that last point, but then shouldn't it be argued that both low HP and high HP maps should exist/be approved, if it provides more variety?

Yeah it should, especially when people like to complain about lack in originality in approved maps nowadays. Higher HP values can make a map stand out way more than a typical arena map. IIRC there's a few approved maps from a couple of years ago that feature higher HP but there's no recent iteration of that map archetype (that I know of) besides the map you mentioned with 200 HP. I'm actually in favor of higher HP maps as well as low HP maps as long as the HP values don't turn people into unnecessary bullet sponges, because people, from what I noticed, don't like facing bullet sponges. It takes too much time to kill one. From my observations, be it here or any other game I played, players would rather shoot against paper rather than a sponge despite being the latter themselves. It's a weird preference but it's usually because people like to overpower their opponents with every advantage possible.

lpzimm wrote:Also, while it seems like you don't like "reckless movement", isn't reckless spamming much worse? It takes a shot to the head from the alien shotgun to die/go dying at 130. Being able to take that shot from a spammer will at worst let the non-spammer (spamee?) escape and heal and at best give the non spammer an advantage because they know the location of the spammer. Most maps have pretty harsh lines of sight (to no fault of the map maker - the game really allows it), and so killing people without seeing them is very commonplace. High HP would force players to, for the most part, keep other players on-screen, making for a truly skilled fight.

I don't mind reckless movement. Moving about frantically is a choice people should have and it's a strategy like any other. I usually like maps that includes room for as many possible strategies as possible. The only issue is that there's not many places where that tactic can exist because most mapmakers are heavily focused on following the map approval requirements checklist as close as they can in order to try to get their map approved so by default, they fall back to the 130 HP average. Diversity in playstyles no longer becomes diverse anymore then because the list essentially becomes the same map with the same functions and purpose but with different designs.

Reckless spamming is a tactic I can't justify and don't like justifying. It allows for some really easy and cheap kills in 130-150 HP maps which is something I don't like. Generally, open and direct sightlines are what gives the encouragement to spam across the map, along with knowledge of the map layout. More open and direct sightlines allow more spamming, because it's known that there's a chance to hit someone, the chance being higher the more direct and open a sightline is from point A to B; disrupted and unclear sightlines don't allow spamming as much because you'll likely hit walls more often. Personally, I find the 130-150 HP range to be a bit too fragile. Not only is the HP range overused, but it limits quick movement (which makes rushing really slow paced) and makes everything else more risky because just about anything can kill you. If anything, I'd prefer the 180-225 HP range as a compromise between fragility and being a "tank."
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby Krutz » 23 November 2017, 23:01

you dont need to have 150 hp or whatever to have the map approved

i would agree in saying that higher hp maps rewards skill more as i feel that lower hp maps, the winner of a gunfight is simply who fires first

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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby lostmydollar » 24 November 2017, 00:36

I think this was made for realism. 130/150hp is more than enough. The real problem is shitty maps where like krutz said one who fires first wins
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby Hikarikaze » 24 November 2017, 00:48

lostmydollar wrote:I think this was made for realism. 130/150hp is more than enough. The real problem is shitty maps where like krutz said one who fires first wins

Quicker reaction time is evidence of the skill on having situational awareness and preparedness. Lower HP maps force players to be more aware of everything (fall damage, blind-firing, etc) because their chances of dying are so high so they have to be more careful.

Higher HP maps don't have or need to build on this skill because you can be situationally unaware and still have a good chance to survive due to a higher HP pool, be it in a gunfight or from environmental hazards. The stakes and risks are lower so there's no need to be as aware or careful.
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Re: Higher health in multiplayer

Postby Dandamage » 17 December 2017, 18:49

Ipzimm, please do not double post.

This is just a reminder, next time you double post will result in a warning.

Posts merged.
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