Why map making basically sucks

[wreak]

This happens a lot in life; sometimes the underdog is the person who works harder and has more originality yet only the person who follows a strict rule gets the fame, even if it doesnt require much effort or it's already been repeated. I have seen this in pb2, youtube, real life, etc.

I know some people already found this out but I call this theory, "the rule over effort."

P.S: Max teabag is already a map maker with the most rates in general.

[Wardemption]

I completely agree with your point.
(It has been stated a lot of times by other people too)

[Roxxar]

@wreak: I'd dare to say you're completely wrong in the context of this post/situation.

Max teabag's maps with 60 rates are his singleplayer maps. Specifically, I assume silverteen11 is talking about his "Christmas" map. The other map that silverteen11 is undeniably talking about is stryde-sniper. Very typical "stryde-sniper sucks" kind of post.

The key difference between the two is to note that Max's map is a single-player, role-playing map while Stryde's map is an approved, versatile (as in it can be DM, TDM, and COOP) multiplayer map. As much as we don't want to admit it, approval gets rates faster, when in reality it should be that rates should get approval. Also, PB2's selling point is not their single-player campaign or available custom levels, but rather the fact that it's an online, multiplayer flash game.

Because stryde-sniper is such a simple, small, and effective map that has lasted throughout a large portion of PB2's time, it's only obvious that it would generate a lot of gameplay and ratings. Because Max teabag's single-player maps are not played as much and because they are not given as much attention as the "Approved Maps List," his Christmas map also consequently gets less ratings.

For example, if you observe Stryde's Railwars map against his Raywars map, you can see that his Raywars map has more votes, despite being released later than the Railwars map and despite the fact that the Railgun is indefinitely more popular than the Raygun. My assumption is that because the Raywars map is actually approved, it would obviously get more attention and, therefore, ratings.

Again, although we might hate to admit it, single-player maps just don't generate as much attention as approved, multiplayer maps. I think it's wrong to degrade stryde-sniper in such a manner that we should just call it "blocks, a background, a gun, done." What I think we're more salty at is the fact that in multiplayer, stryde-sniper is just such a self-made prominent, infamous, and recognizable map. No one gave stryde-sniper as much attention as "older" generations of PB2 did, and we're STILL giving it attention in the form of hate posts, comparisons, and even hosting it under bad names/conditions (I've seen a few lobbies where the host was playing stryde-sniper and the lobby name was something like "easy pp").

It's not a strict rule. It's not a "silver lining" between what's good and what's bad. It's a good concept and a once-good map that's now outdated, overplayed, and overrated. That isn't to say that it's BAD; it's not like it spontaneously got 4000 rates due to some cheat in the system or some communal frenzy of wanting to play and rate it. It's accumulated that many points for a good reason: we wanted to play it, we still want to play it, and we continue to play it.

TL;DR - typical shitpost on stryde-sniper. silverteen has a bad, weak context, but good message. also what appears to be a complete misunderstanding of how singleplayer vs approved multiplayer maps compete against each other in terms of popularity and attention

[mrblake213]

To sum up what Roxxar said,

No one plays SP
Everyone plays Approved Sniper in Multiplayer.

but yeah, I think its nice to have an update with the Map making community of PB2 in terms of the system.

[Roxxar]

To be honest, I don't remember any "city maps" and I don't remember player 12-gunshop (I tried putting that into the custom map selection in-game and apparently it's not published?).

However, what I didn't mention in my last post as much is the key difference between different types of maps, and which ones are more popular. Stryde-sniper is a versatile battleground, I assume player 12-gunshop to be a gunshop/school sort of deal, and I'm honestly unsure as to what "city maps" even are. My judgment is not alone, but unless I know "city maps" to be something else, I think that also says something about their popularity/reputation.

Although not approved, some gunshops and schools are extremely famous as well. For example, Max teabag-gunshop actually has 3500 votes - about 700 votes shy of stryde-sniper. xnx-school is also one of the most famous gunshop/school maps as well. Other examples of famous non-approved map types are saws/traps, training maps (selfboost, portnade, etc.), or somewhat new RPG/altered maps (e.g. max teabag-cuberace)

I know I'm using Max teabag's maps as an example quite often, but I think it's fair to say that he's got the widest variety of maps, as well as concepts many of us have barely even began to think of.

My point is that approval is not the ONLY thing that leads to votes (I have no intention of saying that in my previous post; what I do mean to say is that it's definitely a factor to consider); various types of maps can just as easily draw in votes as others. I didn't really give proof or acknowledge this as much earlier, but it's also possible that the day it was made is also a key factor. For example, some of the earliest known approved maps (Cahir, Max, even Eric Gurt's earliest maps) were approved solely because back in the day, those maps were the innovative, new, and unique ones; that doesn't mean those maps are necessarily "good" or even relevant anymore.

Another TL;DR - approval isn't the only thing drawing in votes; the type of map and when it was made is also important

[KARL SERG]

Simply put, to People it is generally irrelevant how much work was put in a thing most of the time. If they like something simple and easy to digest over some awesome, yet complicated and not as appealing to them, it is because that is how life is: UNFAIR.

It is very common. It would be a miracle if it would be at least as simple as wreck said (follow rules, get the prize), since it is all about luck. Why should we not complain about the low quality music produced by famous artists when there's a plethora of extremely talented, but almost unknown artists who struggle to survive if we are at it?

People's tastes can't change overnight, unfortunately (although I would like that happening; Information is travelling too fast nowadays, giving birth to fads that last a few days or weeks at best and months at worst).

So, yeah... luck. It is the most powerful thing there is. It is not always decissive, but even evolution was driven by it.

[Max teabag]

thx for using me an example.

I don't think SP maps are doomed to be ignored. Nor simple and stupid maps.
Not to toot my horn or anything, but take Max teabag-dodge for example. The most complex map I made and it received ~300 ratings with the highest average rating(4.88) any map has received I know of with that amount of ratings. Which I consider a success.

What differentiated dodge from christmas was that christmas wasn't anything new or special.
You shouldn't really expect anyone to pay attention to your pay unless it's something unique.
Stryde hit the jackpot. He was lucky to be online so fast after the release of the sniper rifle to be one of the first mapmakers to make a map with it. He was also lucky to be one of the first to have a sniper map approved. He was also lucky that it caught on.


I think people should be rewarded based on the result of their craft, not their efforts to make it.

I think attention should be obtained by giving people value instead of it being a sort of charity cuz of hard work.

Having said that, popular MP maps have an advantage due to the multiplayer lobby. That means you can find new MP maps two places... in-game and on the custom maps page, whereas SP-maps only can be found on custom-maps page.
Tho I have a feeling that MP maps get more ratings per play. It seems to me that there are more unregistrered players playing SP maps than MP ones.

edit: http://prntscr.com/f8xzbz illuminati confirmed

[lee06400]

You care too much about rates which are just meaningless numbers, the most important is the entertainment it brings to users who play the maps. An SP map with an amount of rates 10x lower than a multiplayer map may have entertained people as much as the other one.

Map making isn't broken, people who are doing it just for rates does SUCKS tho

[Krutz]

You care too much about rates which are just meaningless numbers,

i dont think you realize that other people in this topic are rightfully using # of rates as an indication of popularity

nobody is really saying "i make maps for the rates" here

[mrblake213]

~ | i make maps for the rates ~ |

[Blue--]

"Why map making basically sucks"
dude, if you knew how much you triggered me with this xD
I know, the Ldr point system has some problems but, to be honest i dont care much about that.
Of course everybody want to get votes on his or her map and me too, but this is not the only one reason why maps should be created.
Maps should be created for fun in the first place, and not to become the ultimate map developer.

[mingo1]

Roxxar makes excellent points, but the idea here is that Silverteen is using Stryde-Sniper as an example. He's tryna say that IN GENERAL a map with more effort gets less votes than maps that follow a simple formula. Roxxar touched on this in his paragraphs, but took it more as "shots" at Stryde-Sniper rather than the overall theme.

"Why map making basically sucks" shouldn't be the topic title, but we all understand what you're getting at, Silver. Take YouTube for example. Clickbait usually gets hella views, but the content that comes with the clickbait can be utter trash, but the video gets views because it's clickbait. On the contrary, if a high quality good content video comes out without clickbait, the views are automatically lower. It really sucks that things are like this.

A huge point Roxxar was touching on was that SP and MP maps have an imbalance of player attraction, so the comparison Silver used was "incorrect." But as I mentioned before, that's not really the theme of his topic. He was really tryna say that a map with more effort gets less votes than maps that follow a simple formula. It's true... it is... here, on YouTube... everywhere. It sucks, but we live with it

Great maps with clear effort and complexity should certainly be featured or something. Why not?

[Roxxar]

He's tryna say that IN GENERAL a map with more effort gets less votes than maps that follow a simple formula...
But as I mentioned before, that's not really the theme of his topic. He was really tryna say that a map with more effort gets less votes than maps that follow a simple formula.

Great maps with clear effort and complexity should certainly be featured or something. Why not?

I don't think it's fair to generalize that concept with Silver's examples. I do think there a sort of feature system that properly acknowledges various maps that very clearly show more effort/thought than others would be nice; however, the level of recognition and acknowledgement that a map gets depends relative to what kind of map it is, and what kind of community we have/are.

For example, the PB2 map-listing/making system, staff, nor can others truly force other players to recognize a map just because he/she thinks it is good. With all intents and purposes, it's only the player's decision to play a map. The player may or may not want to play single player maps, but may indeed prefer multiplayer maps that follow a systematic layout. (That's generally how it seems [or rather, seemed] to be with the PB2 community; after all, the game's main selling point as a flash game is that it's multiplayer)

Again, I do really agree with Silver's message—I even said so in my first long post (copied and pasted: "silverteen has a bad, weak context, but good message"). I just think that his examples were wrongly compared, when taking varying, yet important factors into consideration.

Also:

...took it more as "shots" at Stryde-Sniper rather than the overall theme.

With all due respect, Silver totally devalues the effort put into stryde-sniper (like many other people we've all seen), while praising Max's efforts. I understand that it is just a figurative hyperbole (as in exaggeration not meant to be taken literally), but it's a tad too extreme in my opinion. It's a bit of a common, yet still crass statement to call it effortless (aka one of this, one of that, default shit) and attempt to undermine it by comparing it to something with relatively more effort.

Again, in my opinion, bad example/context, good message.

[mingo1]

Again, in my opinion, bad example/context, good message.

Yuh, that's the bottom line here

[DoomWrath]

Ignoring the entire topic above, and responding only to the OP:

SP maps don't get much attention from the rating public. My 10th Man Down series is a good example, one of the biggest and probably best known SP series in PB2, some of which is due to my position on the staff team, and some of which is due to it being out for 4+ years. The first map of the series has 252 votes.

MP maps, especially approved MP maps, are a lot more popular. Over SP maps, MP maps are naturally open to a wider audience than the one person currently playing, they have an approval system to list them, and if they achieve this status, rates were almost guaranteed.

Stryde's sniper map is a mediocre, simple map that is enjoyable enough to play for a short while. However, he included the sniper rifle, an at the time exciting and brand new weapon, which everybody wanted to try out. Approval rocketed the map to success, as it then became clearly visible to all. Other factors like Stryde's short and memorable username made the map ID simple and easy to recall, and his position on the staff team late 2013, and his position in the Biohazard clan no doubt helped him out in regards to map success, with an immediate captive audience to market his map to.

In the end, Max Teabag's map is far better, obviously. However, extremely good marketing of a reasonable map always beats poor marketing of an excellent map.

No doubt map making, especially these days, offers little to no reward. SP map making offers almost no reward. The main problem is community size, but if that were not a factor, fixes would have to result in a total redesign of PB2's map system.

[Fixer21]

Ignoring the entire topic above, and responding only to the OP:

SP maps don't get much attention from the rating public. My 10th Man Down series is a good example, one of the biggest and probably best known SP series in PB2, some of which is due to my position on the staff team, and some of which is due to it being out for 4+ years. The first map of the series has 252 votes.

MP maps, especially approved MP maps, are a lot more popular. Over SP maps, MP maps are naturally open to a wider audience than the one person currently playing, they have an approval system to list them, and if they achieve this status, rates were almost guaranteed.

Stryde's sniper map is a mediocre, simple map that is enjoyable enough to play for a short while. However, he included the sniper rifle, an at the time exciting and brand new weapon, which everybody wanted to try out. Approval rocketed the map to success, as it then became clearly visible to all. Other factors like Stryde's short and memorable username made the map ID simple and easy to recall, and his position on the staff team late 2013, and his position in the Biohazard clan no doubt helped him out in regards to map success, with an immediate captive audience to market his map to.

In the end, Max Teabag's map is far better, obviously. However, extremely good marketing of a reasonable map always beats poor marketing of an excellent map.

No doubt map making, especially these days, offers little to no reward. SP map making offers almost no reward. The main problem is community size, but if that were not a factor, fixes would have to result in a total redesign of PB2's map system.

Yeh, I agree with all this except the main point... as a map maker from start, my question is, do we actually need votes (rates). Ok well you may say you guys need them - you got them, and after then what you gonna do... hmh? We all become ''the best map makers ever''. C'mon yo...

Although I have to point out more obvious reason what I got years and years now. Rating map as it is deserved is one but rating it cuz you are ''mad'' is other... so fixing that would make me quite happy.

[Lyte]

you know what can ease your pain silverteen? Ill rate some of ur maps 5 stars.

[wreak]

you know what can ease your pain silverteen? Ill rate some of ur maps 5 stars.

I'll do the same for you.

[WolfMaster12]

You are basically comparing a bike with a truck, which is one of the most illogical things in world. Give better comparisons.

On-Topic:

Most of people spend time in Multiplayer, alright? We know. I am the "weird" one though who plays Single Player more than most of people, such as to kill people on SP maps and so on. Still, the fact that most of us spend our precious time in PB2 MP means that SP maps do not get that many votes.

Anyways, I'll give an example on 2 of my maps.

My most rated MP map (plane map) has 36 votes, whereas my most rated SP map (Escape And Pursuit Part 1) has only 8. So, if you want to rise your bloody LDr quickly, make MP maps.

Even if both maps compared are for MP, I assume quality maps do not always get more votes because the map needs to be also innovative (an adjective which is gone from PB2), entertaining, versatile and so on.

[stormforce]

I myself believe my maps are quite good, however I have been stuck at 11 ldr for a year. Many times I see people playing on my maps, but when I check the votes/rates : barely anything has changed. .. most of the time 1 thing. Its just really hard to get people to play your maps when they only care about 707-school, stryde-sniper, etc. I barely even see Eric Gurt, mingo1, or max teabags maps anymore.