this doesnt make any sense.

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Re: this doesnt make any sense.

Postby monkeyman2535 » 11 November 2015, 02:34

As was inevitable this topic has been hopelessly derailed
Let's hit the reset button on this discussion.

Old maps are great. They are a part of our history. They made PB2 what it was, and they've got a lot of good memories behind them. But we shouldn't forget that PB2 will still be around to preserve them when PB2.5 comes out, and that PB2.5 will be an entirely new game: new website, new features, and probably many new players, as well. When we move to PB2, we already bring with us our collective experience and talent and skill; we have the capacity to build a cool new community from what we've got left in us. But if we drag old maps by retired mapmakers into it, we're stifling some of that spirit of novelty. We need to give the new community room to innovate, create, and grow, and bringing old stuff in will disincentivize people to make new things and try new things. If the mapmakers who are still around want to import their old maps, good on them-- but these should be kept to a minimum.

And I think we can all agree that all the good old MP approved maps (yes, including stryde-sniper) that end up getting imported to PB2.5 should be re-evaluated for approval and given an equal shot with all the other maps that people make when the game comes out. Just because they're old and liked and respected doesn't mean they're automatically worthy of getting an approval again, especially in a new setting with new features and objects and ideas to work with. If Eric looks at all the new stuff and still thinks we could do with a dose of good ol' stuff, that's for the best.

Lastly, I think we need to settle this whole MP map-popularity debate once and for all.
I am in favor of an active policy of constantly re-evaluating approvals, especially for approved maps that are exceptionally popular. It is my belief that diversity in maps is good for maintaining a healthy multiplayer community, and that no one or few map(s) should be regarded as a standard for what constitutes "skill" the way snipers and rails are. This creates nasty little sub-communities of people with hateful attitudes that make the game less fun for everyone else.
The frequency of certain maps in the servers also tends to dissolve the community and drive people away. The usual theory of people who like popular maps and/or have bad attitudes is that community choice is basically a democracy, and that therefore it's okay for certain maps to dominate the servers because that just reflects what the community wants. But it's important to understand that multiplayer in PB2 is fluid, meaning that people come and go as they choose. When people who like a certain kind of map monopolize the servers, they form an established set of maps that are constantly being played. This establishment, no matter how strong a majority it has, will always be stronger than the disorganized and scattered players who like other maps. These players are constantly looking for maps they like, but can't find any. If they host a game on one of their favorite maps, they'll always have a smaller chance of people joining their games than the establishment hosters will, just because the people that like their maps will tend to seek out their favorite maps less than the established players, and that's because they don't believe they'll have much of a chance of finding a game on those maps. As a result, they slowly become disinterested and give up and leave. As an example:
Let's say 65% of Pb2 likes snipers maps. Those 65% are always confident they will find a sniper game because there are always sniper games online. They come and go across various sniper maps, and whenever one of them logs off, there will usually always be someone else who comes to replace them. But what about the other 35% of PB2? They can't find anything they like. Maybe they'll join a game here and there or try halfheartedly to host a game on a map they like, but because they're discouraged by the paucity of things that interest them, there will be far less of these people online at any given time, and because of their lack of interest they won't make much of an effort to organize and do things they like. As a result, 35% of PB2's population gradually fades away, and MP becomes deader and deader.
Therefore, although map choice is entirely player choice and is therefore a sort-of democracy, it's a really bad one that never gives its minorities a fair shot and ends up alienating them. The established majority of map-choosers has become more and more defined over the years, and that's part of what's led to the deadness of MP right now. Just because most people are having fun doesn't mean everyone is.
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Re: this doesnt make any sense.

Postby Dark1791 » 11 November 2015, 02:46

I would like to see "reevaluated" turn into not approved for 2.5. Players would be forced to play better maps if all the basic boring ones weren't approved. We would probably also see less shitty knock offs.

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Re: this doesnt make any sense.

Postby artichokecat » 11 November 2015, 07:21

monkeyman2535 wrote:And I think we can all agree that all the good old MP approved maps (yes, including stryde-sniper) that end up getting imported to PB2.5 should be re-evaluated for approval and given an equal shot with all the other maps that people make when the game comes out. Just because they're old and liked and respected doesn't mean they're automatically worthy of getting an approval again, especially in a new setting with new features and objects and ideas to work with. If Eric looks at all the new stuff and still thinks we could do with a dose of good ol' stuff, that's for the best.


didn't read everything but this sure stuck out to me
i haven't thought of that: re approval
that would be good
i approve. :P
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