Cabin Fever

[monkeyman2535]

Brace for wall of text. Please read if you can, but simplified version is available in a TL;DR. I've included a postscript clarifying my views inside the spoiler tag. But if you disagree, please read the whole thing and try to get an idea of where I'm coming from.

On the topic of intros/farewells forums: http://prntscr.com/8z5rjk
KLMJETWORK's forum ban message: http://prntscr.com/8yjxmv

Many of us here on these forums have come a long way from their founding. While others have left and moved on, we've stayed here to at least some capacity, and we've all got to know each other better. For whatever reason, everyone here has chosen to stick around.

And that's great-- especially with so many people coming back with the reinstatement of these forums, we've got a real opportunity to be an open, friendly, and active community. Everyone has a unique voice here, and everyone's posts matter (yes, even you, newbies c; ).

But we can't be that amazing, active, and lovely community until we stop talking like the people in those two screenshots above. I think a lot of us (especially the staff) have, whether or not we realize it, so heavily wrapped up in personal angst and the idea that PB2 is decaying that we can't shake off this bizarre depression.

Specifically-- the staff have, over the last few months, increasingly used the words "drama" and "community" to refer to issues with users. This idea has set in that we're supposed to be a "community", and it's progressed to becoming almost cult-like. The staff (well, some of them) have labeled certain people as rotten eggs who are inherently harmful to everyone else, and they think of the "drama" as a cancerous tumor that's spreading across PB2. They believe that anyone who contributes to the cancer should be immediately cut out to preserve what's left of the community. That they're "not suitable" for the community.

The idea that everyone here knows each other (from Alica's post) contributes to the idea that we're supposed to be a tight-knit, lovely community-- that's the idea that the staff are striving for. The ideas shown in these screenshots are that we are supposed to be a lovely, utopian community, but that a few certain people keep getting in the way. The only way to achieve this community, according to them, is to get rid of all the people who are getting in the way-- that's why the chat is gone, and why KLM's ban message calls him "unsuitable".

It should be obvious that this isn't a healthy attitude. This forum has contracted a nasty case of cabin fever. So many people have known each other for so long that they've become restless, and the space of this forum therefore feels claustrophobic. The staff have been affected especially. It's their job to deal with nastiness, and they've dealt with it so long, and given so many second chances, that it's easy to understand why they're so inclined to long for an idealistic community, to banish people on the grounds that they "cause drama" or are "unsuitable". So shake off this attitude, and consider this community as a place where great things can already happen-- not just one where they should happen.

Spoiler: Show More

Note: I do not in any way condone the actions of KLMJETWORK or anyone else banned for "drama"-related offenses, and I am well aware that I've contributed my fair share to the piles of steaming bullcrap the staff have to sweep up every day-- I've contributed to these nasty attitudes as much as everyone else. But I'm sick of feeling this way, and I'm sick of everyone else feeling this way, too. If someone's banned for being a jerk, tell them they're banned for being a jerk, not for "harming the community" or crap like that. The community can do just fine on its own.

TL; DR: Stop talking about all the "drama" and nasty stuff and nasty people in the community, and do some good things; especially you, staff. We'll all be much happier for it.

[The Demian]

Explain why is KLM perma banned. Screenshots or whatever you can show me.

[Green eyed Demon]

Good to see some people are trying to stand up for a greater good but I'm afraid there's a common sickness around which can rarely be cured.It's human stupidity.
Note that I am not trying to start a flamewar since I'm sick of all that sheit anyway,I just appreciate the fact that someone still bothers with this.

[KARL SERG]

Thank you for showing us these Problems.
What Solutions should we deduce from this Text, specifically?

The only Thing I understood is that you want the Staff to allow some of the Drama and make the Rules more Lax, so the People will find it easier to integrate.
I agree with thse Ideas to a certain extent (I hope that is what you're trying to suggest), but it will not really solve the Situation if it means what I believe it means.

[filopatir]

I want to add that after Alica posted i posted then she removed it and locked the topic then i posted in a new topic after i asked for unlock topic but she said no then Doom replied with that way . It just made me feel like i used to get insulted since most of community insulted (staff and users). It just made me feel like unwanted.

[DoomWrath]

I hope this reply is sufficient, I wrote it while cooking dinner, hopefully it's not too broken/unreadable.

---

Community: The entity that is made up of the players who actively use the forums, or other community-related features (EG, chatroom)

Drama: Generalisation of all rule-breaking that is not a simple fix - IE, a big argument based on a mistake a staff member may have made, taken way out of context and snowballed to hell and back. Obviously not emote spam and the like, you'll hear the word a lot because it happens a lot - it is a rather broad category after all - and it's pretty obvious to its meaning: Some kind of event that causes a big stir, in a negative way.


--- About Intros/Farewells:

We don't need the section because there is not really much point having it, in the opinion of the forum staff. New players can't make friends and get to know people from a "Hi I'm new" post, where the majority of the replies are "Welcome to PB2 forums". They meet people and form opinions by taking part in regular forum discussions, contributing their ideas, etc.
As for a Farewell section, that was abused greatly with people saying they were leaving, then returning a week later. On top of that, it really does not matter to every single player if someone leaves - you can PM your friends here that you're moving on, put it in your signature (same with being new, actually) etc. Plenty of effective ways to let people know you're not around anymore.

Remember, that section was only added for a brief time to prevent people from spamming ATC.


--- About KLM:

He was banned following multiple warnings to stop breaking the forum rules. These rules weren't 'silly' stuff like "Don't disagree with staff", rather "don't outright insult people", "don't swear at people". Rules that most people here have no trouble with following. After that ban, he then evaded multiple times to send offensive messages over forum inbox to site staff, while doing the same onsite. They're his *private* messages, so I don't feel it's necessary to share any of them bar what is essential to make my point to you.

He then messaged me multiple times onsite, and on the forums (even making a topic about it, nonetheless) saying he was leaving and going elsewhere. So I am not sure what all the fuss is about with that. Maybe you guys all think the staff team are evil and fabricate evidence? If that's true, I really do feel sorry for you. We are voluntary flash game staff. We're mostly here to have fun. Why so much fuss when we follow procedure and kick someone out?

He has left the community, hence my note wishing him a farewell. I had a 100+ message casual conversation with the guy a week or so prior - staff members don't just permanently ban people because they hate people. I don't hate KLM, regardless of what you might conspiricise.

And just in case you still don't believe me: http://prntscr.com/8zb1mj

Note that he's also been given the chance to create a ban appeal. Research is handy.

The reason KLM's ban reason had the word 'unsuitable' in it is because he was that. Unsuitable. It's unsuitable for a player to go around swearing and spamming. It's unsuitable for a player
I really hope we don't have to start sugar-coating our reasons for removing/suspending someone.

---

Right, that should sort out anything regarding the Farewell/Intros sections themselves, along with any KLM drama. Onto the original post.

---

Let's start with "so heavily wrapped up in personal angst and the idea that PB2 is decaying that we can't shake off this bizarre depression." - It's true that PB2 is decaying - it's a four year old flash game. It's not going to be living forever. That's something every player here needs to realise and accept, then decide whether they want to make the most out of the final days, weeks, months, years.

Personal Angst is something I'd really like you to show me a few examples of, I am having a fairly hard time understanding what you mean by this (maybe reply with some screenshots/quotes or PM me?) and I don't want to deny it happens without knowing what you're talking about.

But looking at many forum sections, I really don't see any evidence of the community itself decaying. Plenty of the people who have been here a while seem to have the belief that it's decaying and the staff are at some fault, but the majority of people messing about in ATC, Forum Games, Custom Maps, and Update Ideas, don't seem to even have it on their minds that there are these 'big issues' afoot. They just go about having their fun - which is bloody fantastic if you ask me.

Going on from that, "They believe that anyone who contributes to the cancer should be immediately cut out to preserve what's left of the community. That they're "not suitable" for the community." - is blatantly false. That's an opinion formed from the ban notice of *ONE* player who, yes, was deemed unsuitable for this forum over the course of the forum's *entire existence*. Not "Cut out immediately". We have a procedure with forum warnings, which are issued to a player, alongside messages from staff members in reply to posts, or across PMs - these allow a player to know where we have grievances with them, and we can work with them, and change things to either ensure that player had some way of avoiding breaking the rules again, or even editing the rules if the act was something petty. (Or even half-necessary, like starting a big dramatical topic to combat an abusive mod).

--- A note about staff and their attitudes:

I am wondering if the reason the staff team come across so negative to a lot of you old timers (pardon) is that they all know you and your quirks, they've all had to warn you to tone it down a bit, they've all been on the ends of your spite countless times, simply because you've all been here a long time. Stuff accumulates. They've had to file ban reports in your name and check/reply to your posts so many times they're just getting plain sick of it.

Would be lovely to shake hands, and start afresh with everyone who is still around and active. But it would only take one guy to post some big wall-o'-text about something from the past and it would all collapse worse than it ever started.

Staleness is hard to combat in a small community, especially one like this with really not much hope for expansion until PB2.5. You've given us the problems and told us to shake off an attitude, now we'd like to tell you to do the same. Your name crops up as the OP of a lot of these very negative topics - sure you may see a lot of negative issues, but maybe find something positive to talk about.

[The Demian]

[quote="DoomWrath"]
Right, that should sort out anything regarding the Farewell/Intros sections themselves, along with any KLM drama.
Indeed, ty.

[monkeyman2535]

In which I address a post in a very out-of-order fashion.

I hope this reply is sufficient, I wrote it while cooking dinner, hopefully it's not too broken/unreadable.

I think you managed to address every individual aspect of my post without actually addressing the main point of it. The idea behind the post was that this recent rhetoric the staff have been using, focused around "bettering the community" and "avoiding drama", is absolutely bizarre, and that it reflects the increasingly claustrophobic and negative nature of interactions in this community.

I don't remember the staff using any of these words at all when performing bans back in the day; the first one I heard was Tempus banning Vanessa for "causing drama". Since then, I've seen the staff use these words more and more; they've been used as justification for taking down the chat, now for banning KLM. Alica's post was an illustration of how the staff have increasingly used "the community" as justification for their actions. It's my belief that you've all subconsciously got it in your heads that you're striving to improve a community, rather than "helping people have a good time", or whatever. This new stuff you're saying sounds more like you think you're making decisions on making this place better for its "community", which is a high and idealistic goal. It's also my belief that this rhetoric has come from the fact that as the PB2 community has grown smaller and smaller, the staff and users have polarized, and the staff have taken up a distant and idealistic goal (making a community better!) vs a realistic and pragmatic one (helping people have fun). Lastly, it is my belief that this idea has led the staff to increasingly pursue extreme measures of resolving issues, such as permanent bans and removing the chat.

And before you debate me on this, yes, there is a difference between the goals of helping people have fun, and improving a community. The former views the community as an actual group of people who may be aided personally by staff members, and punishments distributed on behalf of the individual players; the latter views the community as a single entity that is not diverse; an institution which can be "improved" by cutting out the bits that make it worse (like the chat).

I hope I made these ideas clearer in this post; my first topic was sort of a getting-ideas-out-there thing.

Note that he's also been given the chance to create a ban appeal. Research is handy.

I already knew that-- that's where I got the information about his ban. Not making assumptions is handy too.
I also pointed out in my post that I in no way condoned KLM's actions and that I was far more upset with the subtext of his reason for being banned than anything about the ban itself. What I believe that subtext is is elaborated in the preceding paragraphs of this post.

Personal Angst is something I'd really like you to show me a few examples of, I am having a fairly hard time understanding what you mean by this (maybe reply with some screenshots/quotes or PM me?) and I don't want to deny it happens without knowing what you're talking about.

I don't have individual screenshots or quotes of this, but increasingly users and staff alike have made dark and fairly nihilistic comments about the decay and dismay of the PB2 community, stuff like "why did I come here" or "I've wasted all my time on this stupid game", or "Jeez, this place has really gone downhill". And yes, I understand that PB2 actually has gone downhill, but what I'm saying is that fixating on this stuff, while it may be natural, is not healthy. And when staff do it, it reflects very poorly on both them and the game. When I was on staff, I was once warned for putting stuff in my name that commented on things in PB2 I found annoying-- I don't see any sort of that attitude in the staff nowadays. Even if stuff looks grim, you all should be the people who look up. Mingo is the only one who seems to be doing that.

Your name crops up as the OP of a lot of these very negative topics - sure you may see a lot of negative issues, but maybe find something positive to talk about.

If you look through my forum history, I've posted some very positive things-- I'm excited about the return of some of the old spirit of PB2 with these forums, and much of what I've said reflects that. But I see where you're coming from in saying this, and I can say to you only that if you want to fix nasty things, you have to talk about them.

I am wondering if the reason the staff team come across so negative to a lot of you old timers (pardon) is that they all know you and your quirks, they've all had to warn you to tone it down a bit, they've all been on the ends of your spite countless times, simply because you've all been here a long time. Stuff accumulates. They've had to file ban reports in your name and check/reply to your posts so many times they're just getting plain sick of it.

I think it's a bit more than just us "old timers" getting that treatment. Although I don't have anything specific to point out, I've still seen staff making rude or sassy remarks to users they've banned in chat. To be fair, a lot of these people are repeat offenders who are probably just as guilty of their crimes as us quirky old-timers, but the staff were AFK like 85% of the time, and the only time they ever showed up was to ban and say nasty things.

I know this is only one guy and this isn't tremendous evidence, but I'm sure you've seen stuff like this happen in-chat, Doom.
Screenshots: http://prntscr.com/8zk10c
Obviously both parties here are being jerks, but I think this is part of a vicious cycle that's driven staff and users apart.

That's an opinion formed from the ban notice of *ONE* player who, yes, was deemed unsuitable for this forum over the course of the forum's *entire existence*.

It is indeed an opinion, but, as I've said in this post, it's based off of what I've seen people say, general interactions between staff and users, and recent staff actions, including the closing of the chat. Again, I think your use of the word "unsuitable" is worrisome-- this community is not a selective organization that carefully chooses its members and boots out the rejects, it's a place that anyone may join so long as they don't act like jerks. Whether you realize it or not, you've become increasingly accustomed to the idea of certain users as public menaces. And again, I reiterate that I don't blame you for this; I'd probably feel the same way at this point if I was on the staff, and again, I reiterate that I feel presenting your attitudes towards the community in this manner are not healthy for you or the community.

staff members don't just permanently ban people because they hate people. I don't hate KLM, regardless of what you might conspiricise.

You warned me about not putting words in your mouth, so don't put words in mine. I think we have a genuine opportunity to reconcile all the staff-user bullcrap that's gone on these last few years here, and it'd suck if it got screwed up because we both stereotyped each other. Let's not do that here.

[KARL SERG]

The Goal of "making People have fun" is not necessary since People can have fun on thier own. The Staff's Job is to prevent the Fun to affect others, hence try to make a better community. It may be an idealistic Goal, but it beats something the People can do on their own.

I've seen Places where the People who are indeed unsuitable keep coming back, being Jerks, because the Staff doesn't rule with an Iron Fist. It's better to get rid of the Problematic People (if they have no Interest to stop doing the wrong Things) instead of letting them join. They will be Jerks anyway. (I know because I tried... I even helped a greater Jerk get banned there and, because of the Mellow Rules, he'd make Alt Accounts to mock the Staff's attempts of banning him.)

It's indeed unhealthy to talk about how the Things have gone downhill (althoguh that's pretty subjective), but this is the Truth and the People will eventually fiind out. the Question is:
Is it better to hide it from the People and let them fiind aut, or tell the People straightforward that the Situation is not the best?