APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

General Discussion related to the Plazma Burst game series.

APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby lostmydollar » 7 December 2017, 14:53

okay lets say eric doesn't want to get rid of his favourite toy - the approval tool. he doesn't want to give it to someone from his staff team or to some player who knows better what maps should be approved. okay. also lets say there is no special button on the website that will throw you on a page where you can put your likes or dislikes on a specified map (section 21). it's good actually, it has its good sides. we know eric won't go insane and delete all approved maps and we know that likes (or votes) won't be farmed by map author and his friends in section 21.

okay. but we definitely need an approval system that will prevent the appearance of maps that some find irritating. like ty q not liking stryde-sniper or krutz not liking eric gurt-railwars1. we should do something about it.

here is some very simple example of an approval system that can fix the mistakes of our holy father eric gurt (god bless him).

1. it's a forum section just like the one we have right now
2. you post an [APPROVAL REQUEST] using the form
3. the topic has 1+ weeks to gain replies. this means that the map cannot be approved within 1 week.
4. the replies can be either "yes, i like this map because..." or "no i dislike the map because..." or "i like the map but i have a note, you should change this ... this ... and this ..."
5. the map cannot be approved until EVERYONE will agree on it's being approved. this means that if 9/10 forum users say something like "yes yes yes plz approve best map ever" but one other person says that the map doesn't fit the requirements, the map won't get approved until the problem is fixed and the community(all users who posted on a topic for past 1 week and later) comes to a consensus(V)
6. if a note or disagreement is reasonable and author of the map did not fix the mentioned mistakes the map cannot be approved just like i said above. author either fixes the map or not getting an approval.
7. once 1 week passed, everything in the topic is clean, all map author's mistakes got fixed, eric approves the map.

example:
i'm lpzimm. i want my "lpzimm-split" map approved. i post it in the map approval section using the right form. during the first week it has got 3 replies. 1) lostmydollar says the map is too open and spammy. 2) ty q says the map is perfect and lostmydollar is an idiot. 3) stryde says the map is too open and spammy and shows more proofs. i, lpzimm, as a map author, say that trampoline is cool and i do not want to make any changes in the map because i like it the way it is now. eric checks the topic, sees the disagreement of a few players, sees that lpzimm(me) did not fix anything, leaves the topic and gives lpzimm extra time to change his mind and fix his map.

if its too time-consuming for you eric, then give the approval tool to your staff team and let them do the job. i'm more than sure they'd like to take care of approval system
God Bless America
User avatar
lostmydollar
Falkok [250]
 
Posts: 297
Joined: 11 April 2017, 17:36

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby gani » 23 March 2018, 18:32

You right, that's probably cuz Eric don't give неебет about new maps that supposed to be approved!
Image
Please support Road to Pripyat: AFTERMATH
https://www.moddb.com/mods/road-to-pripyat-aftermath
User avatar
gani
Civil Security Lite [100]
 
Posts: 121
Joined: 17 July 2013, 08:01
Location: Mars

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby mrblake213 » 24 March 2018, 13:39

You are just butthurt because your maps didn't get approved.

I believe Eric checks the category every once in a while.
What you can do is improve your map when other people comments about it.
If it gets a lot of popularity, it would eventually be approved.
Image
User avatar
mrblake213
Civil Security Boss [500]
 
Posts: 558
Joined: 16 July 2013, 10:25
Location: Philippines

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 24 March 2018, 14:28

mrblake213 wrote:You are just butthurt because your maps didn't get approved.

I believe Eric checks the category every once in a while.
What you can do is improve your map when other people comments about it.
If it gets a lot of popularity, it would eventually be approved.


XD yet he approves maps that hasn't been shown on the servers once, thanks to plays less than 20 and rates. While maps that has over 30 rates never gets approved even with 30+ plays. Unknown > Popular.

Star Fox McCloud
Android T-01187 [200]
 
Posts: 215
Joined: 16 July 2013, 00:21

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby mrblake213 » 25 March 2018, 02:30

Maybe because that map doesn't seem unique or approvable to Eric.
Image
User avatar
mrblake213
Civil Security Boss [500]
 
Posts: 558
Joined: 16 July 2013, 10:25
Location: Philippines

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby ZapruderFilm » 28 April 2018, 06:08

There's only one blatant problem with that --
There's no reason for someone to say yes to a map of a person they don't like, to a map they're not good at, or a map that doesn't suit their taste.

Unfortunately the map system likely won't be perfected and have a final glory before the release of PB2.5
The system isn't horrible right now, anyone can get exposure, and with PB2.5 getting farther and farther into development, (along with decline of players), it will be very hard to come simple, workable system that would be perfect.
ZapruderFilm

ZapruderFilm
Head Moderator
 
Posts: 146
Joined: 26 August 2016, 21:00
Location: USA

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby Hikarikaze » 28 April 2018, 23:31

ZapruderFilm wrote:There's only one blatant problem with that --
There's no reason for someone to say yes to a map of a person they don't like, to a map they're not good at, or a map that doesn't suit their taste.

I can think of a few reasons. Not wanting to look biased towards a map or eventually succumbing to groupthink comes to mind. A good way to fix that issue however is to make community voting a majority vote rather than requiring 100% acceptance or simply discard opinions that don't offer any proper insight and not count them as a valid vote. There'll always be someone that intentionally disagrees but eventually they also come to terms and accept the consensus decision.

ZapruderFilm wrote:Unfortunately the map system likely won't be perfected and have a final glory before the release of PB2.5

That's because 1.) any improvements to the system aren't being openly considered and 2.) only a few people actually are attempting to fix the system itself. That's unfortunate indeed

ZapruderFilm wrote:The system isn't horrible right now, anyone can get exposure

That doesn't make it good or not horrible. There's still decent room for bias that in fact can counter this "advantage" of the system. The blatant problem with this system right now is that it's too reliant on one sole opinion. A system that is designed to accommodate the community by providing approved maps should involve more direct participation from the community itself rather than leaving a post about a map and leaving the decision up to a single person that doesn't and can't speak for the overall community.
Image
User avatar
Hikarikaze
Proxy [700]
 
Posts: 711
Joined: 24 January 2014, 02:05
Location: Somewhere, just not here

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby ZapruderFilm » 29 April 2018, 22:03

Hikarikaze wrote:I can think of a few reasons. Not wanting to look biased towards a map or eventually succumbing to groupthink comes to mind. A good way to fix that issue however is to make community voting a majority vote rather than requiring 100% acceptance or simply discard opinions that don't offer any proper insight and not count them as a valid vote. There'll always be someone that intentionally disagrees but eventually they also come to terms and accept the consensus decision.

Map opinions are a pretty subjective topic. Not only would it be very hard to even get a majority of players to agree a map is suitable, but then the only opinions that will (for the most part) be submitted are the ones of the people who frequent the forum, which also is not fair.


Hikarikaze wrote:That's because 1.) any improvements to the system aren't being openly considered and 2.) only a few people actually are attempting to fix the system itself. That's unfortunate indeed

If improvements were not considered for the system, then the new forum section would have never existed.
For an improvement to be implemented, it has to be practical and workable.

Hikarikaze wrote:That doesn't make it good or not horrible. There's still decent room for bias that in fact can counter this "advantage" of the system. The blatant problem with this system right now is that it's too reliant on one sole opinion. A system that is designed to accommodate the community by providing approved maps should involve more direct participation from the community itself rather than leaving a post about a map and leaving the decision up to a single person that doesn't and can't speak for the overall community.

I'm not sure why you think/act like Eric owes it to anyone else (the community, map makers, etc) To run his website anyway except the way he wants to.
Eric used to just pick maps he saw fit for approval. In order to get noticed, you would have to spam Eric in some way or get lucky.
This new way of accepting applications finally gives a public reliable way to have your map in the drawing for approval, something that has never been possible before. I personally would call that a huge improvement, although you seem hung up on minor details that likely aren't going to change anytime soon.

Anyways, if PB2 was a team project where there were several developers, or there was a big modding community that helped make the game, or the community was run via donations, I might say there would be some reason for someone to be upset that anyone except Eric can't select approved maps. But this is not the case, and I am very confused on why you approach this as if the community is entitled to approve their own maps.

Not sure if you realize this, but the entire community being open to submit a map approval template has already completely changed the maps that will end up being selected, I'm sure. Without this forum section, Eric would not have approved many of the new maps that coming out and old overused maps would not have been rotated out.

To say that the community deserves anymore participation than they're getting in the system is misinterpreting the point of the new system in the first place. The new system wasn't made to make the approval system an all encompassing community project, and nowhere was that even implied. The system was made so that anyone can give a case on any map they dislike/like, boosting its popularity on the forum, which makes Eric more likely to look at it.
ZapruderFilm

ZapruderFilm
Head Moderator
 
Posts: 146
Joined: 26 August 2016, 21:00
Location: USA

Re: APPROVAL SYSTEM CONCEPT

Postby Hikarikaze » 30 April 2018, 03:11

ZapruderFilm wrote:Map opinions are a pretty subjective topic. Not only would it be very hard to even get a majority of players to agree a map is suitable, but then the only opinions that will (for the most part) be submitted are the ones of the people who frequent the forum, which also is not fair.

It's not hard to sway opinions towards a general consensus regardless of agreement or not. The current system that you think is good because it involves more people to make a case also relies on the people who frequent the forum which inherently doesn't make it fair. The people on the forum isn't a large enough population to represent the community and thus relying on a minority instead of a larger section of the community is unfair.

Also relying on one single person aka Eric to speak for the community as to what maps are ultimately approved certainly isn't fair at all because his final choice can override and undermine the entire community's opinion if he wants. Riding along the community's opinion despite opposing it just to placate the community will also lead to groupthink which definitely isn't exactly fair. Elaborate how any of that is fair in the slightest.

ZapruderFilm wrote:If improvements were not considered for the system, then the new forum section would have never existed.
For an improvement to be implemented, it has to be practical and workable.

I meant improvements to this current system, not the forum section itself. The forum section itself is what allowed the current "system" to exist and isn't necessary to have. It's also exclusive from the system which itself has problems. The section simply contains these problems to a single place. My point still stands if the same problem-riddled system is still standing without changes.

Also, I've made my case on how this new "system" is nothing more but a cheap imitation and hollow shell of its former predecessor. This is barely an improvement to that predecessor system
ZapruderFilm wrote:For an improvement to be implemented, it has to be practical and workable.

The OP's suggestion is practical and perfectly workable. It has its flaws but it prevents random maps from being randomly approved within a couple days after a topic is made. Any of the flaws that exist in OP's concept can be worked out if the focus goes towards it and not defending the current system.

ZapruderFilm wrote:I'm not sure why you think/act like Eric owes it to anyone else (the community, map makers, etc) To run his website anyway except the way he wants to.

I'm not sure why you keep appealing to authority and use the excuse of running the website however desired to justify one person speaking for an entire community. He's not the entire community and thus he can't ever speak for it. No excuse can justify that. He can run the website however he wants because it's his website but he's not the community that keeps his website alive which is probably something you should realize first before continuing on with the topic.

ZapruderFilm wrote:Eric used to just pick maps he saw fit for approval.

That's not true. Eric wasn't the only one with approval capabilities back then. Some mapmakers also did contact Eric personally regarding approval of their map. This same counterpoint can be said for this current system you're eager to defend. Some maps get approved after a mere couple of days (which is a problem if the OP had to create a workaround to address that point) and some just don't get approved at all. This inconsistency can obviously be attributed to the fact that Eric has the final say to overturn community opinion when that shouldn't happen.

ZapruderFilm wrote:This new way of accepting applications finally gives a public reliable way to have your map in the drawing for approval, something that has never been possible before. I personally would call that a huge improvement, although you seem hung up on minor details that likely aren't going to change anytime soon.

It was very possible to include a map in the drawing for approval. This system you're keen to defend probably because you had a large role in making this sad excuse for a system from what I hear just publicizes the process that existed before anyone stepped in to conceptualize this "system." It's easier because it's public but publicizing it also highlighted its fundamental issues to the forefront. You seem hung up on rationalizing this system without properly understanding the flaws and lack of effort the system has which shows that you perhaps don't exactly know what you're talking about and that you need to develop a more constructed opinion in order to better understand the other side that you keep trying to dismiss just to placate and shield yourself from any criticism towards a system that most definitely needs a look at.

Publicizing a system isn't such a huge improvement like you think it is; it just wasn't necessary because the old system worked fine. If it was such a major problem, someone else would've done this a long time ago and you wouldn't be the one basking in the limelight defending this system fervently.

ZapruderFilm wrote:I might say there would be some reason for someone to be upset that anyone except Eric can't select approved maps. But this is not the case, and I am very confused on why you approach this as if the community is entitled to approve their own maps

So why is Eric entitled to approve the maps that he didn't make but rather the community? Because he has authority? Or because he has the final say and we need to approach him inevitably in the end? Don't appeal to authority because like I said, he can't speak for the community. The community makes these maps so it's fair enough that they get a say as to what happens to their own maps. There are times where Eric himself isn't a reliable source as to what approval-worthy mapmaking is. Perhaps you haven't seen the map removal topic for EGRW yet which, surprise, was a map Eric made and approved himself. Let me know how that community input you seem proud of "establishing" affected anything regarding the map because it only seems to solidify my point further.

Some people just happen to know better than Eric sometimes. This is the thing with judgment. He's not always right. Stop treating him like a god who always has the last word just because he has authority over everyone.

ZapruderFilm wrote:To say that the community deserves anymore participation than they're getting in the system is misinterpreting the point of the new system in the first place. The new system wasn't made to make the approval system an all encompassing community project, and nowhere was that even implied. The system was made so that anyone can give a case on any map they dislike/like, boosting its popularity on the forum, which makes Eric more likely to look at it.

You clearly misinterpreted what I said. Community participation can easily be discarded because Eric has the right and capability to do so. It can be argued that community participation almost doesn't even exist yet still because of this.

You're right that this new system isn't meant to be an encompassing community project but let me tell you something crazy: literally no one said it was. What's the point of giving a case if your case can be rendered irrelevant by one single person anywhere at any time? The community should be more involved by not only giving a case, but also a verdict regarding the approval status of a map. The community is the group that makes and plays these maps. It's better that they decide what is right for them rather than letting one person decide for them which will almost certainly lead to a major disconnect as it has been and is right now and will lead to questionable approvals that people won't approve of. Eric shouldn't be a key player at the table but rather someone that follows the overall consensus of the community. If the community through a majority vote thinks a map should be approved, Eric should do just that. If that decision proves to be catastrophic after a few days, it can always be overriden. This establishes a compromise that allows actual community involvement while allowing Eric to keep his authority status.

ZapruderFilm wrote:The system was made so that anyone can give a case on any map they dislike/like, boosting its popularity on the forum, which makes Eric more likely to look at it.

This is the funniest thing I've read so far today. It shows that community involvement is just reduced towards feeding a popularity contest which shows how big of a joke this "system" is.
Image
User avatar
Hikarikaze
Proxy [700]
 
Posts: 711
Joined: 24 January 2014, 02:05
Location: Somewhere, just not here


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users